4GAE tuning for fast road use

Discussion and technical advice for 84-89 AW10 & AW11 MR2. 3A-LU, 4A-GE, 4A-GZE.

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Jim-SR
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Re: 4GAE tuning for fast road use

Post by Jim-SR »

Carrillo rods (early spec 40mm big end, 19mm small end) weigh 444g each, of which 313g is rotating, and 131g is reciprocating

i have my doubts about the strength of those THS and other cheap rods. there are some cheap rods on eBay occasionally, the manufacturers name escapes me, which are much better renowned and big in the motorbike world, and those would be safer. but they cost a bit more than the THS ones

people overestimate how much Carrillo/Eagle/Pauter rods cost direct from manufacturer though. youd be surprised how cheap they are with the current USD exchange rate if you import them
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Re: 4GAE tuning for fast road use

Post by jrleech »

THS claim that they are made in the same factory as the Eagle rods, they use the same materials and look the same, so I'd be very suprised if they aren't identical to the Eagle rods, but without paying for the brand name....
dex
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Re: 4GAE tuning for fast road use

Post by dex »

jrleech wrote:..... they are made in the same factory as the Eagle rods
That'll be in China then :)
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Re: 4GAE tuning for fast road use

Post by jrleech »

... so should I sell on the THS rods and buy branded Eagle / Carillo rods?
dex
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Re: 4GAE tuning for fast road use

Post by dex »

I wouldn't, not at the price you got them for. Bit of a bargain and I expect more than up to the job for what you want them for.
Jim-SR
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Re: 4GAE tuning for fast road use

Post by Jim-SR »

by all means run the THS rods. claiming that they are made in the same factory as Eagle doesnt prove that they are though, and being made in the same factory (even if it is true) doesnt say anything about the material used, the manufacturing process, the quality of the tooling used for the forging, etc. these can all easily vary brand to brand, even if they are all made in the same Chinese (most likely) factory. Chinese manufacturing is generally awful though, they take the same process as USA or UK and remove all but the key elements of the process in order to shave the price down. and since quality is all in the attention to detail, Chinese product tends to fall a long way short in high performance applications

but you are only expecting 9000rpm out of them, if you create a powerband that starts to tail off between 8500-8800rpm then you should be within a safe enough margin. you could still get 185-200bhp at those revs, youve just got to work a LOT harder to get towards 200bhp, which would ideally require a smallport cylinder head as i dont think you can get the flow quality from the large port for 200bhp below 9500rpm. 185bhp is a definite possibility though with a well built engine :)
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Re: 4GAE tuning for fast road use

Post by James_Ward »

Jim-SR wrote:.....then when the valve opens youve got a vacuum in the engine, and a positive pressure zone in the plenum, and youve effectively got forced induction ;)


Are you talking about resonance tuning? There are fairly simple equations that allow you to work out runner lengths so you can line up the resonant frequency of the intake charge with the maximum valve overlap/rpm of whatever cams you're using to get a small VE increase. I've got a book somewhere that explains it unfortunately it's at home. Send me a PM and I'll dig it out this weekend.

That's what the good old TVIS does it gives you two diffferent intake runner diameters effectively giving you two intake resonance 'boosts'.

Plenums exist mainly to equalise the flow to each cylinder, mainly because underbonnet package considerations rarely give allow you to have long (required for good low down torque) equal length runners. the plenum acts as a 'reserve' of air so the cylinder with the longest runner length will get roughly the same air pressure as the cylinder with the shortest.

On a race car which is tuned for top end generally wide open throttle driving, and is not designed to be quiet, smooth, fuel effecient and reliable, short intake tracts with no plenum is fine. Plus short intake tracts mean the resonance boost occurs high up the rpm range.

The caterham with the VHPD K series uses a roller barrel throttle to minimise throttle plate air resistance at maximum rpm......
Jim :)
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Lauren
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Re: 4GAE tuning for fast road use

Post by Lauren »

James_Ward wrote:
That's what the good old TVIS does it gives you two diffferent intake runner diameters effectively giving you two intake resonance 'boosts'.


I thought the inlets on the TVIS manifold were all the same in diameter and length from plenum to head?
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Jim-SR
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Re: 4GAE tuning for fast road use

Post by Jim-SR »

James_Ward wrote:
Jim-SR wrote:.....then when the valve opens youve got a vacuum in the engine, and a positive pressure zone in the plenum, and youve effectively got forced induction ;)


Are you talking about resonance tuning? There are fairly simple equations that allow you to work out runner lengths so you can line up the resonant frequency of the intake charge with the maximum valve overlap/rpm of whatever cams you're using to get a small VE increase. I've got a book somewhere that explains it unfortunately it's at home. Send me a PM and I'll dig it out this weekend.

That's what the good old TVIS does it gives you two diffferent intake runner diameters effectively giving you two intake resonance 'boosts'.

Plenums exist mainly to equalise the flow to each cylinder, mainly because underbonnet package considerations rarely give allow you to have long (required for good low down torque) equal length runners. the plenum acts as a 'reserve' of air so the cylinder with the longest runner length will get roughly the same air pressure as the cylinder with the shortest.

On a race car which is tuned for top end generally wide open throttle driving, and is not designed to be quiet, smooth, fuel effecient and reliable, short intake tracts with no plenum is fine. Plus short intake tracts mean the resonance boost occurs high up the rpm range.

The caterham with the VHPD K series uses a roller barrel throttle to minimise throttle plate air resistance at maximum rpm......


if its in a book, it must be true!!

sorry, but that is a typical book readers response. in theory everything youve said is correct, in the real world its not. resonance tuning works well in a perfectly straight pipe with smooth walls, a constant temperature range of air within it, and setup on a test bench in a laboratory. we did some experiments at college with resonance in tubes, and even in the classroom the results didnt come out perfect.

in an engine, where there are a zillion dynamic entities, resonance tuning simply doesnt work how its supposed to. there are formulas to calculate it, but they have variable factors within them that you have to estimate. there are also complex radii within intake systems which make it hard to even precisely measure the length of the intake, let alone which part of the valve to take as the end! in the real world the formulas can get you reasonably close. experience and knowing how to read the results of the formula based on the engine in question gets you even closer, and then you use trial and error to find perfection. most top engine tuners that i know, or know of, dont even use the formula, its that far out compared to what their experience tells them from years of trial and error on a rolling road (a couple of guys i know were tuning inlet lengths on carbs when i was still wearing nappies!)

as for a plenum setup, again, a book response. top race cars with the most conditioning of airflow you can possibly imagine, which are built almost solely around aerodynamics, still run plenums. i am of course talking about F1 cars. they can make the air go just about anywhere they want with their £100m aerodynamics budget, PER SEASON. yet they still run an airbox which has a plenum chamber. its not your conventional layout, but it still utilises positive pressure to improve cylinder filling. whats more, there is plenty of space in many engine bays to run equal length long trumpets, but the reason cars come with a plenum as standard is as a cost reduction and simplicity exercise. running ITB's means no reliable vacuum in the intake. how can a car idle in a perfectly controlled manner if it has to do so by opening the butterflies? manufacturers are all about emissions and cost reduction. running ITB's results in poor emissions, not to mention the fuel consumption issues. an idle control valve in a sealed container on the other hand is much more desirable.

the plenum vs ITB's for ultimate power is a long argued matter which is rarely ever settled with anything more than speculation. even if someone were to build a plenum setup that out-performed a set of off-the-shelf ITB's (which is easily done), there is still the argument that the ITB's just werent designed to the same standard as the plenum setup, and vice versa. it will never be settled properly, but i can assure you that the opinion amongst those in the know is that a plenum is the way to go for outright power, so long as the regulations (if used in racing) and packaging requirements permit it

finally, on the matter of TVIS. TVIS doesnt work in that way at all. tell me where the first resonance peak occurs? the large ports of the largeport head are far too big as standard. they flow enough air for 180bhp+ without modification, but when youre only running 120bhp this results in low inlet velocities, poor mixture conditioning, and thus a reduction in bottom end torque. at higher revs the head works much better as inlet velocities are raised. so Toyota designed TVIS to get around the mismatched cylinder head setup. it has 2 holes of equal diameter, and below 4500rpm (the changeover points vary between engine revisions, lets call it 4500rpm for simplicity) one of the holes closes. this halves the inlet manifold runner area, but since when was runner area part of the helmholtz resonance calculation? length remains the same, all you are doing is forcing the air to move through a tighter passage, and thus improving the inlet velocity at lower revs where the torque needs to be recovered due to the overly large inlet ports. this isnt tuning for resonance, its just basic fluid dynamics. in hindsight Toyota realised that the TVIS shouldnt be necessary, and they designed the smallport head which did what the largeport should have done 5 years previous. they carried TVIS over to the mk2 for a very short while to try and use it to benefit torque on the 3S-GE engine, and whilst it made a small difference (many claim this as proof that the TVIS was an intentional development, it wasnt, it was an afterthought on the 4A-GE) it wasnt significant enough to justify the added complexity and they dropped the technology

one final extra point i want to add which i forgot earlier - if equal length runners are the way to go for optimum power, why do Hasselgren run uneuqal length trumpets on their 250bhp 4A-GE Formula Atlantic engines? ;) and il post a picture i took of it for proof if you dont beleive me, installed in the back of a Swift 014. my personal belief is that things are a lot more complex than books and simplified scientific formulas suggest!

not wanting to have a pop at you, by all means feel free to offer a counter argument. but based on my knowledge and understanding, those are flaws in your reasoning (and the reasoning of those who wrote the books that you read) :)
James_Ward
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Re: 4GAE tuning for fast road use

Post by James_Ward »

if its in a book, it must be true!!


Well I'm pretty sure I didn't pick it up from the fiction section.... :)

everything youve said is correct, in the real world its not.


Eh? am I right, or wrong?

results didnt come out perfect.


They never do, but, as in all automotive development, the formulas give you your starting point and the subsequent testing refines your design.

there are also complex radii within intake systems which make it hard to even precisely measure the length of the intake,


If you're designing a new system you can make them perfectly straight, perfectly round, and perfectly smooth... plus it might be hard but not impossible. If you have a design which you've created from a 3D CAD model it's not impossible to get a centreline length and CSA for most shapes no matter how complex.

the real world the formulas can get you reasonably close.


I thought you said they weren't correct in the real world? But I'm glad you agree with me now :wink:

experience and knowing


by far the most important part of engine tuning, you're right when you say the books only give you half the story.... probably less than half (but still an important half!)

there is plenty of space in many engine bays to run equal length long trumpets


But you have to consider the whole intake system, if you've got a system with a single throttle at one end of the plenum then you have four different intake lengths. That's the whole intake, not just the intake runners i.e. foward of the throttle body. The plenum acts as an air reservoir at a point where equal length pipes can go to the cylinder head. This equalises the pressure at each cylinder - sorry my wording could have been better.... :lol: of course with a throttle body system drawing air through individual air filters - essentially an intake system for each cylinder - pressure balance isn't a problem as the pressure at the mouth of each of the intake systems can be reasonably expected to be atmospheric so you don't need a plenum.

how can a car idle in a perfectly controlled manner if it has to do so by opening the butterflies?


they don't they have a throttle bypass valve which meters the idle air.

running ITB's results in poor emissions, not to mention the fuel consumption issues.


So how does the current BMW M5 V10 meet euro 6 emissions then? All though I'd have to agree with the fuel consumption thing, at least for that engine :wink: but the 20V 4AGE isn't too bad on fuel.... is it? I was hoping to put one in my MK1a at one point....

....TVIS doesnt work in that way at all. ..... but since when was runner area part of the helmholtz resonance calculation? ....


You are of course quite right :oops: ahem.... still there are manifolds that use this method, just not this particular manifold. My bad...

To deflect my embarrasment somewhat here's a manifold that uses continuously variable tract lengths to give perfect resonance tuning at every engine speed....

[url}http://www.vyncolit.com/EN/6News/BMW%20 ... 0V1_05.pdf[/url]

if equal length runners are the way to go for optimum power, why do Hasselgren run uneuqal length trumpets on their 250bhp 4A-GE Formula Atlantic engines? ;)


Honestly? I've no idea. Perhaps they have a different fuel map for each injector, but the fact is that if you have different intake lengths for each cylinder then you'll end up with a slightly different mixture in each cylinder based on the single fuel map for all of the cylinders. Perhaps this is not a bad thing.... there may be other considerations e.g. perhaps the centre cylinders run hotter so they run them slightly richer to compensate. As you say below things are never as straight forward as they seem there may be a non-peformance reason why they're different lengths. Or not.

things are a lot more complex than books and simplified scientific formulas suggest!


I couldn't agree more, but theories and books give you a solid starting point - otherwise what's the point of going to school?



I don't mean to be confrontational I was just offering some pointers for your manifold design which you mentioned. However if you've already considered these points and rejected them than fair enough and good luck with your project! :D

I would argue the toss about resonance tuning working, but if you've made up your mind then fair enough.... a simple google search will turn up plenty of people who seem to think it works, but hey! Perhaps they're wrong.... we live and learn..... :wink:
Jim :)
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Re: 4GAE tuning for fast road use

Post by Jim-SR »

i meant complex radii inside the intake system, INCLUDING the cylinder head itself. where is the centreline of the inlet port around the valve guide? youve got an asymmetric runner shape with a protrusion, and then a valve stem stuck in the middle for good measure. not to mention which point of the valve you take as being the end (given that the centre of the valve isnt a part that air can flow though). things are just far too complex for any simplified formula to get spot on, although you seem to have said this yourself in your latest reply, which was a slight contradiction to your original post. but il let you off given that you arent trying to claim that all books state pure fact ;)

the tuned length of a plenum inlet runner is taken from the inlet runner opening into the plenum, not from the throttle body itself. the idea being that the plenum should contain stationary air (it never truely does, due to the constant air demands of the engine) at a near-constant pressure (in the same way as atmospheric pressure outside of an ITB setup) and the air is then drawn in through the runners (which in a good manifold would be trumpeted into the plenum) and thus the resonance wave occurs within the runner only, and not back up to the throttle body (the throttle butterfly in an ITB didnt have an effect on resonance tuning last time i checked, so why would this be different in a plenum setup?)

you can get decent fuel economy and emissions from ITB's, but you do so by running a sealed airbox, so youre basically just running a plenum setup, but with a butterfly in each runner as opposed to a single butterfly on a single throttle body. having that sealed plenum means you can obtain the same vacuum chracteristics as a plenum setup, even monitor the pressure (MAP) for fuelling purposes, and thus dont have to rely solely on an engine load vs engine speed map taking inputs only from TPS and RPM. it is possible to implement an idle control valve type arrangement onto ITB's, but you then require one per body, and it is over complicated. very few aftermarket setups feature this, it tends to be an OEM thing on the few cars that come with ITB's as standard (i can only think of 3 or 4 off the top of my head)

the Hasselgren setup runs unequal length runners because the port spacing is quite close and it ensures that no 2 trumpets are stealing air from one another (cylinders 1 and 4 are short, and 2 and 3 are long. but 2 and 3 are on opposite cycles, so even though they are next to each other, they draw in air out of phase). the theory tells you that you should always run equal length runners, but in practice this isnt always necessary, i just used that example to illustrate the complexity of things, and how different people can interpret the same concept in vastly different ways.

in that same vein, i dont wish to put you off making your points by offering counter points. at the end of the day, the only way to push things forwards is for everyone with opposing ideas to work those ideas against each other to finish up with one combined perfect idea. but on the other hand, i do personally thing some of what you have said is wrong, or misconceived, in the same way as im sure you feel about some of what i have said

it makes interesting discussion if nothing else :)
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Re: 4GAE tuning for fast road use

Post by firstmk1 »

A fact is only true until someone proves it false. :-k
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Re: 4GAE tuning for fast road use

Post by Lauren »

Jim-SR wrote:
it makes interesting discussion if nothing else :)


DING, interesting debate. :thumright:
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