max b.h.p. without forced induction?

[bobbyh]

cheers all, and very informative link, about timing/ECU, learnt abit..

[OlberJ]

Drove my first 1MZ powered Mk1 today and i can tell you it feels very close to how they do with a 4age.

Only it goes sooooo much faster. Sounds soooo much better. And is soooooooo much cooler.

[4age]

My 88 mk1 is kicking out 139 bhp, bought off someone who had already done the work so saved me a fortune!
To get that extra power a fair bit of work has been done, the main ones being:-
Stainless steel sports exahust
Induction kit
Uprated fast road cams
piggy back ECU with full re-map
high pressure fuel regulator

If the budget is tight, and not wanting instant results all these things can be done over time, even sourcing second hand parts from the forums or ebay!!

[OlberJ]

Save up for an engine conversion.

Or spend the money on the handling and braking and replacing worn parts on the 4age.

No point going power hunting and doing it half ar$ed.

[cmux]

Drove my first 1MZ powered Mk1 today and i can tell you it feels very close to how they do with a 4age.

Only it goes sooooo much faster. Sounds soooo much better. And is soooooooo much cooler.

Was that my car? I'm glad you like it, I can hardly wait myself.

[OlberJ]

It was indeed Chris. Feels braw.

[cmux]

Save up for an engine conversion.
No point going power hunting and doing it half ar$ed.

My sentiments exactly

One of the things that I didn't like about both the NA and SC engines that I've had in this car, is that though it was always quick, (relativly speaking) as soon as I had a passenger on board the drop in performance was noticable, (here goes) There is no substitute for cc's
I spoke to the nice lady in the supercharger shop today and she said that the new charger will be sent out today.
Thanks for all your efforts on the car

[bobbyh]

1MZ....?

go on giz a clue, spec, etc..

[un1eash]

1MZ-FE is a 3.0l V6 with an alloy block and head with 168-190bhp with VVT-i it has 210bhp on tap.

[Bender Unit]

to get a 4A-GE to 160bhp youll need cams, vernier cam gears, headwork (ideally, you can probably get away without it but youll have to go bigger on cams to compensate and youll lose power at lower revs), a solid engine to start with (if its got ANY problems then youll lose power and have reliability issues later), a piggyback ECU, slightly larger exhaust, and probably a few other small changes to accomodate the extra power. that lot would stand you in at somewhere around the £1000-1800 mark, depending on how much stuff you source 2nd hand

to get a 4A-GE to 200bhp you need cams, cam gears, headwork, throttle bodies, standalone engine management, forged pistons, forged h-beam rods, lightened and balanced bottom end, lightweight flywheel, a full engine rebuild to fit in all the new parts, uprated valve springs, underbucket followers, thinner head gasket, exhaust manifold, exhaust, bigger injectors, underdrive auxillary pulleys, etc, etc. pricing is then widely varied depending on whether you do the work yourself. if you do the work yourself then £3500-6000 depending on the parts used

Hi Jim,

Was meaning to drop you a line on something very similar but seeing as it’s come up on here. I am going to build up a spare head to drop onto the existing engine in my car. Ultimately the finishing spec performance wise would be

Stock 7 rib bottom end
OER ITB’s
Stock fuel injection – in stock location
TRD 288 cams – 7.9 lift
Toda adjustable pulleys
Greddy Emanage piggyback
4-1 FGK manifold
Straight through exhaust, including decat
Toda Lightweight Flywheel

I also plan to do my own head work – port matching the ITB’s / exhaust to the head, clean up the ports and ally the appropriate finishes and maybe even play with the combustion chambers. Will most likely just follow what’s been done before.

Any suggestions on the sort of power I might expect from all of that, if there anything you would do differently.

Cheers

James

[Jim-SR]

to get a 4A-GE to 160bhp youll need cams, vernier cam gears, headwork (ideally, you can probably get away without it but youll have to go bigger on cams to compensate and youll lose power at lower revs), a solid engine to start with (if its got ANY problems then youll lose power and have reliability issues later), a piggyback ECU, slightly larger exhaust, and probably a few other small changes to accomodate the extra power. that lot would stand you in at somewhere around the £1000-1800 mark, depending on how much stuff you source 2nd hand

to get a 4A-GE to 200bhp you need cams, cam gears, headwork, throttle bodies, standalone engine management, forged pistons, forged h-beam rods, lightened and balanced bottom end, lightweight flywheel, a full engine rebuild to fit in all the new parts, uprated valve springs, underbucket followers, thinner head gasket, exhaust manifold, exhaust, bigger injectors, underdrive auxillary pulleys, etc, etc. pricing is then widely varied depending on whether you do the work yourself. if you do the work yourself then £3500-6000 depending on the parts used

Hi Jim,

Was meaning to drop you a line on something very similar but seeing as it’s come up on here. I am going to build up a spare head to drop onto the existing engine in my car. Ultimately the finishing spec performance wise would be

Stock 7 rib bottom end
OER ITB’s
Stock fuel injection – in stock location
TRD 288 cams – 7.9 lift
Toda adjustable pulleys
Greddy Emanage piggyback
4-1 FGK manifold
Straight through exhaust, including decat
Toda Lightweight Flywheel

I also plan to do my own head work – port matching the ITB’s / exhaust to the head, clean up the ports and ally the appropriate finishes and maybe even play with the combustion chambers. Will most likely just follow what’s been done before.

Any suggestions on the sort of power I might expect from all of that, if there anything you would do differently.

Cheers

James

you could probably get 185bhp out of that. it depends on how far you go with the headwork really. if youre going to drop a different head onto it then can i suggest you start off with a smallport!! you can still make the same peak figures, but you gain about 10-15% everywhere below 5000rpm. the only issue with fitting a smallport head is youll need to run an external oil drain back to the sump, which is really easy, other than that its a direct fit

with regards headwork, on a largeport dont touch the main runners theyre too big to begin with, just improve the surface finish and match the openings to the inlet manifold (if necessary, often then are already too large). all the easy gains are found in the bowl area, try not to touch the short side radius except to remove casting and machining flaws. combustion chamber is another tricky area, dont deshroud the valves, youll lose flow overall despite how restrictive that area may look, just polish it up and remove and sharp edges. its a good idea to get a 5-angle on the inlet valve seats and 3-angle on the exhaust and have the valves refaced too, as well as a head skim. if the valve guides show any sign of wear then replace them with phosphor bronze ones, i wouldnt worry too much about profiling the part of the valve guide that protrudes into the port, there is as much harm to be done to flow there as there is improvements. keep it simple for the best results unless youve got the means to verify what you are doing

on the smallport all the same stuff applies except you can take more material out. less is more though, you want to keep the velocities up as best as possible to retain low end power whilst balancing that with mass flow for the top end power. good headwork costs £600+ for a reason though lol, its a serious art

one thing you might have trouble with is running the ITB's on a piggyback ECU. youre relying on the MAP sensor in that scenario, and ITB's arent closed at idle. so it can mess up the MAP sensor readings as there isnt a high vacuum condition at idle, so the car will struggle to idle, and will also struggle at low revs. at top end it doesnt really matter. there are ways to improve the vacuum signal, youll also need to consider this for the brake booster as well as it needs the vacuum too. there are a few people who have successfully run ITB's on an eManage though, Nathan Freke is the most succesful that i know of with something like 207bhp iirc on a pair of gutted Weber DCOE's running as throttle bodies.

[PW@Woodsport]

1MZ-FE is a 3.0l V6 with an alloy block and head with 168-190bhp with VVT-i it has 210bhp on tap.

non vvti 1mz's are all 200bhp,not sure where you get 168-190 from?

This 1mz powered mk1 is the nicest mk1 we have ever converted,the engine is an absolute joy in the mk1 chassis,there is very little if any weight increase but the torque delivery is phenominal,it just keeps on pulling VERY hard through the revs,throttle response is quicker than instant!

Can't wait to finish my own 1mz mk1 now and thats a supercharged one

[un1eash]

Was just using my friend wiki for those stats paul.

[PW@Woodsport]

oh right,good old wiki.....written by keyboard mechanics

[un1eash]

I tend not to take it as gospal but its good for a quick reference.

3.0l Supercharged V6, now that sounds like fun. That would be a real track weapon with so much torque low down.

[PW@Woodsport]

hell yeah,it should be one of the quickest if not "the" quickest mk1 in the country.... (having said that some of the 3sgte powered ones are damn quick!)



These 1mz's are so damn light and so torquey,it really is the best engine ive ever seen/driven in a mk1.

[OlberJ]

No way is that gonna be the quickest in the country.







Well, not if i have my way

[Bender Unit]

you could probably get 185bhp out of that. it depends on how far you go with the headwork really. if youre going to drop a different head onto it then can i suggest you start off with a smallport!! you can still make the same peak figures, but you gain about 10-15% everywhere below 5000rpm. the only issue with fitting a smallport head is youll need to run an external oil drain back to the sump, which is really easy, other than that its a direct fit

If I do make anything like 185bhp then I would be very happy. TBH 160bhp would be just as good. I will be working from the big port for the only reason that the ITB’s I have are designed for the big port head. Also figured that I was doing the head work myself I could afford to make a few mistakes – junk the head and start again without any financial pain. Big ports are ten a penny and worth peanuts – small ports aren’t sadly

It’s all going to be a bit homebrew so sadly I won’t be paying anyone to work the head for me. If you don’t mind I would like to PM you a bit nearer the time with what I was planning in more depth and get your views on it. I have a few tech articles from TecArt / TRD bible which I was going to use to guide me.

What’s your view on compression bearing in mind I wont be changing the pistons?

I need to post up a picture of my ITB set up – I have a vaccuum plenum to take an equalised reading from and it also has an additional vacuum line for the brake booster. It seems that this is a fairly well trodden path in the AE86 circles with a lot of the 20v guys doing similar and not having much / if any issue. Obviously time will tell.

Cheers

James

[PW@Woodsport]

I personally don't understand why someone would spend huge amounts of money on the 4age..... surely if you after that much power its insane to go throwing a large amount at an already "on the limit" engine,basically making it a lot more unreliable in the process.... but it's an old argument i guess and many would disagree with me,but i say drive all of the options before spending your money.

After having just built this 1mz powered mk1, for me there is no other engine thats better suited to a mk1,extremely light and 200bhp straight out of the box and a torque curve that looks like a table top,and ive always been a diehard 3sgte in a mk1 fan,but this 1mz has blown me away in all honesty.Lets not forget 200bhp is your starting point with an engine like this,not the end result and thats in NA form.

My argument has always been.... a 200bhp 1mz will stomp all over a 200bhp 4age,but it will cost you the same to do both but without sacrificing an ounce of reliability,in fact you gain a heap of that and very little weight increase.... no brainer for me really.

<waits to be pulled apart by the 4a purists>

[Jim-SR]

you could probably get 185bhp out of that. it depends on how far you go with the headwork really. if youre going to drop a different head onto it then can i suggest you start off with a smallport!! you can still make the same peak figures, but you gain about 10-15% everywhere below 5000rpm. the only issue with fitting a smallport head is youll need to run an external oil drain back to the sump, which is really easy, other than that its a direct fit

If I do make anything like 185bhp then I would be very happy. TBH 160bhp would be just as good. I will be working from the big port for the only reason that the ITB’s I have are designed for the big port head. Also figured that I was doing the head work myself I could afford to make a few mistakes – junk the head and start again without any financial pain. Big ports are ten a penny and worth peanuts – small ports aren’t sadly

It’s all going to be a bit homebrew so sadly I won’t be paying anyone to work the head for me. If you don’t mind I would like to PM you a bit nearer the time with what I was planning in more depth and get your views on it. I have a few tech articles from TecArt / TRD bible which I was going to use to guide me.

What’s your view on compression bearing in mind I wont be changing the pistons?

I need to post up a picture of my ITB set up – I have a vaccuum plenum to take an equalised reading from and it also has an additional vacuum line for the brake booster. It seems that this is a fairly well trodden path in the AE86 circles with a lot of the 20v guys doing similar and not having much / if any issue. Obviously time will tell.

Cheers

James

youve given it a good amount of thought already by what youve said there, so it should all work soundly. vacuum plenum is indeed the best way to go, and the only way to really get a sensible vacuum signal, its still not perfect, but hey, its a performance car so it doesnt need to idle!!

as for compression, get as much as you can without valves hitting pistons. on stock pistons you cant physically get too much, youll smash valves on pistons long before the compression ratio gets out of hand and causes detonation problems. it will be a case of calculating and sticking plastercine on piston crowns i think to figure out how far you can go, youll want to leave enough clearance for the valves to grow at temperature though, i wouldnt like to hazard a guess at what that number would be though, id say 0.5mm minimum, and then youre putting a lot of faith in your valve springs at 7500rpm!