4GAE tuning for fast road use

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jrleech
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Re: 4GAE tuning for fast road use

Post by jrleech »

I don't see the relevance of the article on Honda Tech to the difference between ITB's and a single inlet via a plenum. The article correctly states that as you increase the size of the butterfly on a set of ITB's then the velocity of the air will decrease, losing some of the ram effect.

Yes, if you have a quad TB setup with 4 large butterflys then you will end up with slower air velocity, but why would you fit 4 large ones? If the ITB sizes are matched correctly to the required air flow requirements then 4 small throttle bodies should flow a similar amount of air with similar port velocity.

My understanding was that the benefit of the quad TB was that you had trumpets, tuned by design in shape and length to give optimum performance for the required engine profile. This can't be done in a generic plenum system, as each different engine requirement will have a different optimal inlet design.

Ahh.... think I've just realised the benefit of the plenum / single TB.... On a ITB setup, the airflow through the throttle body will stop start due to the opening / closing of the valves. On a plenum chamber with single TB, there will always be one cylinder pulling in the air, so there will always be airflow through the TB, I'd assume resulting in a much better ram air effect than the ITB's.

On a similar note, Patrick (Rogue Motorsports) showed me the intake manifold off the Mk2 BEAMS 3SGE engine. Looking inside the manifold, it has a full set of trumpet inlets, opening into the plenum.

Maybe a similar thing on the Mk1 could be a good setup, tuned length inlet trumpets opening out into a single throttle body plenum chamber?
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Re: 4GAE tuning for fast road use

Post by Jim-SR »

a few people have hinted at the reasons why a single plenum works better, a few have got some misconceptions.

first and foremost, throttle butterflies are a restriction. not a massive restriction, but a restriction all the same. if youre chasing the ultimate power, you dont want ANYTHING hindering you. that 3% could cost you £5000 to get back lol. not really relevant on road engines, but its good practice to make as few compromises as possible. id rather not settle for 199bhp when i can get 200bhp with a little effort and no extra cost

secondly, lots of the TOP cars in motorsport are running ITB's. i cant argue that theyre not, i can argue the reasoning though. first off, the majority of racing series' are running restrictor cones. if youre restricted to a certain amount of airflow anyway, then youre not quite as fussed about a lesser restriction upstream. ITB's are easier to just bolt on as you can tune lengths more easily. they are also available straight off the shelf.#

they run ITB's (of sorts) in Formula 1, but they are using rather a more complex setup than your simple butterfly, sliders and all sorts (not got a clue what they are running these days, but theyve run sliders and barrels in the past) which means there is zero restriction at full throttle, and race engines spend most of their life at full throttle or zero throttle, there isnt a great deal needed in between

now for the specific reasons why a plenum is better....

air enters through the throttle body (a single large one) and fills into the plenum. the plenum then feeds the 4 individual runners which head to the ports. valve opens, large vacuum appears, air flows down the runners. if youre designing an inlet manifold for a specific application then youve got your tuned lengths, youve got a trumpetted runner opening inside the plenum too to smooth the flow. the difference is that youve got a plenum full of slow moving air...

there is no such thing as ram effect on road cars as most people think of it (fast moving car scooping in air at speed), it doesnt happen much below 100mph, and below 150mph its as good as pointless with regards scooping air into the airbox from outside to "ram" it. F1 cars get a ram effect, but they also run a complex airbox which converts their ITB's into what is essentially a plenum setup. if you just feed your throttle body sufficient air for the engine to run, then it will enter the plenum at a low speed, and within the plenum you aim to get it even slower, and also to "ram" (using the velocity inside the inlet, not the speed of the car, dont confuse the 2) it in there as best you can to increase the pressure as much as possible. then when the valve opens youve got a vacuum in the engine, and a positive pressure zone in the plenum, and youve effectively got forced induction ;) how else can you acheive over 100% volumetric efficiency on an engine? you simply cant recreate this on ITB's without adding in restrictions (butterflies, non-flush trumpets, etc). standard inlet manifolds have a vacuum in the plenum so any vacuum your engine creates is negated. its (one of) the reason(s) why engines only tend to be around 50-70% volumetrically efficient from the factory. its not in the manufacturers interests to chase perfection in fluid flow when they can get the power back more cheaply elsewhere

there are holes to be picked in my argument, but there are just as many to be picked in using ITB's. the fact of the matter is that for ULTIMATE performance, a plenum manifold is superior. ITB's are just cheaper and easier to bolt on and run. at the end of the day, how many people possess the skills and equipment to design and build an inlet manifold with complex fluid flow analysis to get optimum plenum pressures and runner profiles without spending an absolute fortune? (for the record, i myself dont entirely, but ive got access to a lot more than your average person through work and contacts)

ITB's are easy and work well, plenum inlet manifold is just showing off, and is something of a challenge for me to play with, and ultimately going to make me more power. i could just as easily hinder myself with it, but its something else to keep me busy on my never-ending MR2 project :)

P.S. jrleech - once ive gont mine built and working how i want it, i fully intend to produce them to order. its going to cost me enough to do it probably, so if i can recover my costs by sharing my work il gladly do so :)
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Re: 4GAE tuning for fast road use

Post by Speedy »

:shock: :thumleft: :thumleft:
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Lauren
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Re: 4GAE tuning for fast road use

Post by Lauren »

Jim I bow down to your knowledge. Thanx for that explanation.

Just having a thought on this, would ITBs with a decent sealed airbox help resolve some of the issues?

Also i'd be very interested if you can keep up posted as to your developments with regard to this plenum you are designing.

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Jim-SR
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Re: 4GAE tuning for fast road use

Post by Jim-SR »

yeh ITB's with a sealed airbox basically emulate a plenum inlet manifold, albeit with some extra restrictions. you get half of the benefits

theres nothing at all wrong with the way ITB's work though without a proper airbox setup, they do their job fine, youre talking about fractions in the differences you can make, it just depends how much of a perfectionist you are lol
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Re: 4GAE tuning for fast road use

Post by cartledge_uk »

Jim-SR wrote:yeh ITB's with a sealed airbox basically emulate a plenum inlet manifold, albeit with some extra restrictions. you get half of the benefits

theres nothing at all wrong with the way ITB's work though without a proper airbox setup, they do their job fine, youre talking about fractions in the differences you can make, it just depends how much of a perfectionist you are lol


So ITB's with trumpets into the biggest sealed airbox possible?

What about trumpets on the ITBS? length, angle etc which is better for which?
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Re: 4GAE tuning for fast road use

Post by Jim-SR »

length tuning inlets is a different story altogether. you can make rough calculations using formulas which get you ballpark, then you have to trial and error it on the dyno really and try a variety of trumpet lengths. the more experienced you are, the closer your ballpark guess is. mine wouldnt be all that close lol. i talk a good game...

trumpet angles, assuming you mean the angle of the sides as they taper down, id assume are fairly similar to venturi angles with regards what works best. just buy existing trumpets. if you mean angle with regards angling the trumpets down into the throttle bodies or such like, then dead straight is ideal

you dont NEED an airbox around the throttle bodies. if you dont get the airbox the right shape and volume then you can just as easily LOSE power with it. i dont want to be responsible for telling everyone to do it and then everyone putting their car into the MR2 challenge or something and blaming me for losing 2 seconds a lap haha. theres an element of trial and error to airbox design as well. experts probably know roughly where to start. i start out using CFD and just refine my ideas to get them close, then prototyping and dyno testing to fine tune. it helps to be able to ask advice from people who do it for a living though, which aids your initial guesstimation

theres no harm in playing though. if you think youve got something which might improve power and its as easy to fit as an airbox or trumpets, then just book some rolling road time and go and have a play. worse case scenario you dont make any power, it costs you £100 for the dyno time and materials (fibreglass is good for prototyping with, using expanding foam and filler to make moulds), but youve learnt lessons about what DIDNT work. and then you can come back with some fresh ideas. theres no substitute for experience :)
jrleech
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Re: 4GAE tuning for fast road use

Post by jrleech »

Thanks Jim, nice explanation :D

For the record, where I was talking about ram air effect, I trying to get across keeping a positive pressure in the plenum through the natural flow generated by the engine (not ram air as in from the cars motion). However as you've pointed out, I would still have been wrong, as the plenum operates at a vacuum, but I knew what I was aiming for ;)

Hope your design gets the results you're hoping for, and (at the risk of getting a slapping) I hope it looks good!!
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Re: 4GAE tuning for fast road use

Post by cartledge_uk »

Thanks very much, some useful information there.

and i'm sure your calculations will be closer than mine! lol
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Re: 4GAE tuning for fast road use

Post by JMR_AW11 »

Jim-SR wrote:length tuning inlets is a different story altogether. you can make rough calculations using formulas which get you ballpark, then you have to trial and error it on the dyno really and try a variety of trumpet lengths. the more experienced you are, the closer your ballpark guess is. mine wouldnt be all that close lol. i talk a good game...

trumpet angles, assuming you mean the angle of the sides as they taper down, id assume are fairly similar to venturi angles with regards what works best. just buy existing trumpets. if you mean angle with regards angling the trumpets down into the throttle bodies or such like, then dead straight is ideal

you dont NEED an airbox around the throttle bodies. if you dont get the airbox the right shape and volume then you can just as easily LOSE power with it. i dont want to be responsible for telling everyone to do it and then everyone putting their car into the MR2 challenge or something and blaming me for losing 2 seconds a lap haha. theres an element of trial and error to airbox design as well. experts probably know roughly where to start. i start out using CFD and just refine my ideas to get them close, then prototyping and dyno testing to fine tune. it helps to be able to ask advice from people who do it for a living though, which aids your initial guesstimation

theres no harm in playing though. if you think youve got something which might improve power and its as easy to fit as an airbox or trumpets, then just book some rolling road time and go and have a play. worse case scenario you dont make any power, it costs you £100 for the dyno time and materials (fibreglass is good for prototyping with, using expanding foam and filler to make moulds), but youve learnt lessons about what DIDNT work. and then you can come back with some fresh ideas. theres no substitute for experience :)


What's the state of play with computer modelling of engine intakes?

I come from an electronics background and use some snazzy (£££)software every day for simulating PCB layout for frequencies up to 10GHz and above. eg Sonnet software and Eagleware Genesys. there's some serious maths going on with this software and it can take into account all manner of things to determine how an RF signal propagates across a complex PCB. eg PCB height, metal lid height etc etc. you can even use it to design and test aerials to see how well they transmit radio signals and with what radiation pattern etc.

So surely there must be software that does this kind of thing for engine intake tracts of various shapes etc? It's only air being sucked into a pump through an inlet tract... or is it more complex than that?
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Lauren
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Re: 4GAE tuning for fast road use

Post by Lauren »

Interesting reply Jim. All good stuff. :)

From a personal perspective i must admit i wouldn't be happy not running an airbox with ITBs, purely because of not having an air filter. Also i wonder how important it is to have cold air feeding the engine. My suspicions are that it isn't quite as important as is often made out, due mainly mainly to a reasonable airflow through the engine anyway.

As is usual with these things, its a complex subject as i'm finding out. Its something i briefly dabbled with when i had a pair of twin 45s on a car 15 years ago, but i didn't get the chance to explore it in depth.
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Re: 4GAE tuning for fast road use

Post by shish »

JMR_AW11 wrote:
What's the state of play with computer modelling of engine intakes?

I come from an electronics background and use some snazzy (£££)software every day for simulating PCB layout for frequencies up to 10GHz and above. eg Sonnet software and Eagleware Genesys. there's some serious maths going on with this software and it can take into account all manner of things to determine how an RF signal propagates across a complex PCB. eg PCB height, metal lid height etc etc. you can even use it to design and test aerials to see how well they transmit radio signals and with what radiation pattern etc.

So surely there must be software that does this kind of thing for engine intake tracts of various shapes etc? It's only air being sucked into a pump through an inlet tract... or is it more complex than that?


there probably is, but also probably costs as much as your rf simulation software :lol:
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Re: 4GAE tuning for fast road use

Post by cartledge_uk »

Lauren wrote:

From a personal perspective i must admit i wouldn't be happy not running an airbox with ITBs, purely because of not having an air filter. Also i wonder how important it is to have cold air feeding the engine. My suspicions are that it isn't quite as important as is often made out, due mainly mainly to a reasonable airflow through the engine anyway.


You can run socks on each individual air horn (although from what I read they are pretty useless). Or one big filter over all the stacks (I think not sure about this).
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Lauren
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Re: 4GAE tuning for fast road use

Post by Lauren »

cartledge_uk wrote:
You can run socks on each individual air horn (although from what I read they are pretty useless). Or one big filter over all the stacks (I think not sure about this).


I wouldn't use socks, don't rate them. It'd have to be one big filter most likely, similar to what i've had in the past on twin45s.
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Re: 4GAE tuning for fast road use

Post by monkeymax »

shish wrote:
JMR_AW11 wrote:
What's the state of play with computer modelling of engine intakes?

I come from an electronics background and use some snazzy (£££)software every day for simulating PCB layout for frequencies up to 10GHz and above. eg Sonnet software and Eagleware Genesys. there's some serious maths going on with this software and it can take into account all manner of things to determine how an RF signal propagates across a complex PCB. eg PCB height, metal lid height etc etc. you can even use it to design and test aerials to see how well they transmit radio signals and with what radiation pattern etc.

So surely there must be software that does this kind of thing for engine intake tracts of various shapes etc? It's only air being sucked into a pump through an inlet tract... or is it more complex than that?


there probably is, but also probably costs as much as your rf simulation software :lol:


Yup. Plus due to a number of effects I won't go into right now, current commercial software is still not quite up to scratch.
Get back to me in two and a half years time when I've finished my research degree on the subject (computational simulation of low speed flows in constrained piping...). :)


Edit: oh and to get a more accurate picture you have to ensure the airflow into the engine is correctly mapped from atmosphere. Given you;d therefore have to take airflow around engine and car into consideration for this in order to get a proper picture for the immediate entry of the airflow... well it's not exactly a five minute job... :)
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Re: 4GAE tuning for fast road use

Post by jrleech »

The guys that do:
Image
do an airbox for the quad TB set:
Image

The tweakit ones are available with tapered bore throttle bodies:
* 45mm at the Ram Tube, 43mm Butterfly, 40mm at the Manifold
* 48mm at the Ram Tube, 45mm Butterfly, 43mm at the Manifold
* 50mm at the Ram Tube, 48mm Butterfly, 45mm at the Manifold
... which they claim is good for a few extra bhp. As they're saying a Ford Duratec made 237bhp with the smallest of the TB's (40mm @ manifold), then I assume that aiming for 201bhp max on the 4AGE, the smallest ITB set they do will enable the peak power while maintaining the best low down performance.

They do look spectacular and I'm sure will create a superb sounding engine :D

Suppose I should start looking for a small port head and beefy block with oil squirters rather than trying to use the original big port 7 ribber.....
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Re: 4GAE tuning for fast road use

Post by Jim-SR »

Lauren - you still run an air filter, of course, you just dont HAVE to run one in an airbox. in the same vein, you dont have to run an airbox that simulates a plenum, you can run one that purely acts as somewhere to store the filter.

JMR - theres lots of software available for computer modelling fluid flow. Fluent is probably the industry standard, but theres plenty about. the area of engineering is called "CFD" (abbv.), or "Computational Fluid Dynamics". it has its flaws, sure. and for the kind of work i do with it, im limiting my accuracy with the spec of computer i have access to and the level detail i put into the calculation model. but it still gets me closer on my first "practical" trial and error attempt than guesswork does lol
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Re: 4GAE tuning for fast road use

Post by monkeymax »

Yup, Fluent is indeed the industry standard at the moment. I think that Star-CD is just behind... (and IMO is numerically better)
I'd say (from my experience and all I've read) that Fluent is good for working out where to start as you do Jim, but it won't give you a definitive answer yet...
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Re: 4GAE tuning for fast road use

Post by LimeyMk1 »

jrleech wrote:The tweakit ones are available with tapered bore throttle bodies:
* 45mm at the Ram Tube, 43mm Butterfly, 40mm at the Manifold
* 48mm at the Ram Tube, 45mm Butterfly, 43mm at the Manifold
* 50mm at the Ram Tube, 48mm Butterfly, 45mm at the Manifold
... which they claim is good for a few extra bhp. As they're saying a Ford Duratec made 237bhp with the smallest of the TB's (40mm @ manifold), then I assume that aiming for 201bhp max on the 4AGE, the smallest ITB set they do will enable the peak power while maintaining the best low down performance.


Cheers for that info Jon! :thumleft: Made me happier about my current setup but it's not 4AGE so I won't say any more. :mrgreen:

If you want a cheaper setup why not use bike throttle bodies? :whistle:
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Re: 4GAE tuning for fast road use

Post by JMR_AW11 »

Jim-SR wrote:
JMR - theres lots of software available for computer modelling fluid flow. Fluent is probably the industry standard, but theres plenty about. the area of engineering is called "CFD" (abbv.), or "Computational Fluid Dynamics". it has its flaws, sure. and for the kind of work i do with it, im limiting my accuracy with the spec of computer i have access to and the level detail i put into the calculation model. but it still gets me closer on my first "practical" trial and error attempt than guesswork does lol


Could you use it to knock up a crude model of the existing inlet tract for the UK 4A-GE?
I've always thought about junking the airbox for a cone filter but I played with this on motorbike engines years ago and it's not until you fit the standard airbox back on that you realise what mid range torque can get lost with the cone filter.

It would be nice to look at this kind of stuff on a PC.

We do have some clever thermal management software here that models fans and heatsinks on a 3D CAD structure and can show airflow and hotspots etc but I don't think it will up to the job for engine intakes.

I'll see if I can get hold of a demo of Fluent to play with.
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