Why has the Toyota MR2 not evolved into the mk4?

Discussion and technical advice the SW20 MR2. 3S-GTE, 3S-GE, 3S-FE etc
Anything and everything to do with maintenance, modifications and electrical is in here for the Mk2.

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Quigonjay
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Re: Why has the Toyota MR2 not evolved into the mk4?

Post by Quigonjay »

btodd wrote:I saw an article in Auto Express/Autocar? I think it was a month or two back about a part petrol part electric sports car to replace the Mr2 and Celica but have thrown the magazine away and can't find any evidence of it now online. But I have found the following which makes interesting reading and seems to be a similar article, MR3 anyone?

Link here

http://www.channel4.com/4car/feature/mo ... andro.html


quote from the link -

The tyre treads were very neat, too, consisting of Toyota logos


cool :P
Bibbs
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Re: Why has the Toyota MR2 not evolved into the mk4?

Post by Bibbs »

btodd wrote:I saw an article in Auto Express/Autocar? I think it was a month or two back about a part petrol part electric sports car to replace the Mr2 and Celica but have thrown the magazine away and can't find any evidence of it now online. But I have found the following which makes interesting reading and seems to be a similar article, MR3 anyone?

Link here

http://www.channel4.com/4car/feature/mo ... andro.html


Yeah, the Volta .. about 2 years old now, and still no car :(

Nissan, Mazda & Toyota are all going NA. Honda was always there.

And now BMW, Audi and Merc are all going turbo .. weird.
Bobby (aka Shaggar)
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Re: Why has the Toyota MR2 not evolved into the mk4?

Post by Bobby (aka Shaggar) »

shibby! wrote:"Any car with 4wd"

Dont agree with that, only in the wet, or on rough ground.

There is a clip of Evo and a Subaru racing a S2000 and a Mk3 Mr2 and both the RWD cars one.

The 4wd cars seemed to just understeer madly. On a track i would bet a rwd is better than 4wd. Although the evo, was far better than the Subaru.

An Mr2 on a dry flat road, would just as fast as Subaru or Evo. With the right driver

Nick


Maybe in the real world but in track terms the daddy is the Evo if you look at almost any form of trial or competition out there. Check out TOTB and Battle Royale and the Evos just cream evertthing. The lap record at Tsukuba is even held but an Evo from HKS and the subsequent quickest cars are also Evos. Even when the Jap tuners put their SW20s out against them they just havent got close whatsoever/. Dont get me wrong, i dont want a suoped up saloon, I want a true sportscar hence the MR2 but we have to atleast be realistic here. Like I said, in the real world on the roads you might be right (to a point?).

I also read somewhere a while back that there was a new MR2 being developed which took styling cues from the Ferrari F50 :shock:


Bobby
Green Goblin

Re: Why has the Toyota MR2 not evolved into the mk4?

Post by Green Goblin »

shibby! wrote:

There is a clip of Evo and a Subaru racing a S2000 and a Mk3 Mr2 and both the RWD cars one.



Here it is....

Click here

The problem for Toyota can be solved easily...just produce the MK1 again (as a mark IV). Then you can have the best looking, the best handling and the most stylish MR2 again...

I'd buy one ![/url]
Bobby (aka Shaggar)
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Re: Why has the Toyota MR2 not evolved into the mk4?

Post by Bobby (aka Shaggar) »

Green Goblin wrote:
shibby! wrote:

There is a clip of Evo and a Subaru racing a S2000 and a Mk3 Mr2 and both the RWD cars one.



Here it is....

Click here

The problem for Toyota can be solved easily...just produce the MK1 again (as a mark IV). Then you can have the best looking, the best handling and the most stylish MR2 again...

I'd buy one ![/url]


Yeah but these examples are not at the top end of tuning so to be honest those examples, although good for Touge, are certainly not representative of what can be done. I think the bias is deffo for the rwd cars in this film. Like I said check out Battle Royale, Tsukubas track records, TOTB blah blah blah. Even Jun in Japan (article in Max power this month) sayd that the Evo is the best track car in Japan. I for one am not gonna pretend to know better than Jun Engineering mate.

Bobby
jim
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Re: Why has the Toyota MR2 not evolved into the mk4?

Post by jim »

It's a great shame if Toyota are dropping their sports car range.

I can't see that it will do them any good image wise though. The F1 team surely isn't a replacement for a sports car line up? But then again, Renault don't have a sports car.

RIP Toyota sports...
Club Tropicana

Re: Why has the Toyota MR2 not evolved into the mk4?

Post by Club Tropicana »

jim wrote:It's a great shame if Toyota are dropping their sports car range.

I can't see that it will do them any good image wise though. The F1 team surely isn't a replacement for a sports car line up? But then again, Renault don't have a sports car.

RIP Toyota sports...


"Renault dont have a sports car" - Mercifully :lol:. I'm a MK2 n/a driver, and while I think the MK2 does have something to offer (and the turbo is very, very quick) the design of the car is getting on now, and I think we should all work harder/smarter (i'm thinking of selling rose-tinted specs to imoc members :mrgreen: ) to buy newer cars.

And besides, the MR2 'concept' was ...er... 'borrowed' (in the traditional Jap sense) from the x1/9, which did way back in '72.
Rob
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Re: Why has the Toyota MR2 not evolved into the mk4?

Post by Rob »

"the MR2 'concept' was ...er... 'borrowed' (in the traditional Jap sense) from the x1/9, which did way back in '72"

Agreed - but Toyota added reliability to the concept which was fundamental.
Club Tropicana

Re: Why has the Toyota MR2 not evolved into the mk4?

Post by Club Tropicana »

Rob wrote:"the MR2 'concept' was ...er... 'borrowed' (in the traditional Jap sense) from the x1/9, which did way back in '72"

Agreed - but Toyota added reliability to the concept which was fundamental.


Thats very true - throwing a load of car parts in the air and then praying they resemble a car when they land was never a recipe for success (Heya - itsa car!) but the italians were there 1st. X/19's are beautifully balenced cars though.
tonigmr2
IMOC Committee
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Re: Why has the Toyota MR2 not evolved into the mk4?

Post by tonigmr2 »

Bobby (aka Shaggar) wrote:

Maybe in the real world but in track terms the daddy is the Evo if you look at almost any form of trial or competition out there. Check out TOTB and Battle Royale and the Evos just cream evertthing. The lap record at Tsukuba is even held but an Evo from HKS and the subsequent quickest cars are also Evos. Even when the Jap tuners put their SW20s out against them they just havent got close whatsoever/. Dont get me wrong, i dont want a suoped up saloon, I want a true sportscar hence the MR2 but we have to atleast be realistic here. Like I said, in the real world on the roads you might be right (to a point?).

Bobby


Yes the Evos won TOTB last year - but it was the first one out of four! Previous to that the Skylines always won - arguably tactics over the actual car secured their victory too. :wink: Evos vs MR2s is not really comparing horses for courses anyway...there is always room in the market for a RWD powerful sports car, Toyota just seem to have forgotten that. Nissan (and to some extent Mazda) haven't!!

T
rore
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Re: Why has the Toyota MR2 not evolved into the mk4?

Post by rore »

ENSMR2 wrote:
Ian Geary wrote:
Get them on a dry road, and i am extremely confident that the Mr2 will out handle most cars.


Unfortunately it has been known to rain in the UK.

Don't forget the government's new emissions rules - not exactly turbo friendly, which is why manufacturers have been moving to smaller capacity VVT engines I reckon.

Fleet buyers wouldn't touch an MR2 type car, which in the UK, is where a lot of the cash is for car sellers.

The Mk2 styling (exterior) has stood the test of time quite well - just think of 90s rivals such as the Ford Probe and Nissan 200SX s13.

But the interior is sadly well behind the times. And new safety rules, as well as chassis and body technology (folding roof anyone?) will probably mean a ground up redesign is needed, rather than re-hashing the grill and rear lights (aka Subaru).

I do recall reading on www.celica-club.co.uk that a new Supra concept is out - based on a Lexus. An MR2 could follow:

Image Replaced With URL For Quote http://bilder.autobild.de/bilder/1/57673.jpg
Image Replaced With URL For Quote http://bilder.autobild.de/bilder/1/57675.jpg
Image Replaced With URL For Quote http://bilder.autobild.de/bilder/1/57678.jpg

Pics swiped from the celica-club forum.

Ian


I don't think we'll see a new Supra. I remember reading somewhere that Toyota will not bring any cars "back from the dead"

That'll be badged as a lexus.


Yup... here's that 'New Supra' as a Lexus concept. the LFA no less

Image

Image

Image

Link - http://www.lexus.com/about/concept/lf-a.html
Ellie
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Re: Why has the Toyota MR2 not evolved into the mk4?

Post by Ellie »

RedMR² wrote:You're only saying take of the rose tinted spectacles because your opinion differs with mine :wink:

and yes I am slightly biased....but, what MK of MR2 do the majority of IMOC own? Figures don't lie :wink:


Hmmm ... neither does the fact that Toyota underestimated the market for the first MR2s. I cannot remember an occasion when we had one in the showroom that wasnt pre-sold. You couldnt get them for love nor money, demand outstripped supply.

Buts lets face it. All three marks are three completely different cars, they are all loved by their owners no matter what condition they are in, they just happen to share the same name. :)
senie

Re: Why has the Toyota MR2 not evolved into the mk4?

Post by senie »

The Japs are all bringing their sports cars out in 2007/2008 so if the Volta comes out, thats when we will see it. The LFA is due then as well, as is the Nissan GTR. The Volta isnt going to be cheap though looking at the spec.
It seems the LFA will be priced againt the 911 and 911T depending on which engine you buy.
The volta i would expect would be priced against the Boxster maybe even a Cayman.

That leaves the cheaper sports car free.
Toyota have the basics to hand. They know how to make a fine handling small car (mk1 and mk3) and theyknow they have a decent powerplant in the 3sgte. Can it be that hard to update the two and combine them? Havent Rogue stuck a 3sgte lump in a mk3? how good was the result?

Has anyone any experiance of the new Toyota hybrids? How well do these perform? Would the response of the engines be embraced by drivers? do they electric motors actually do anything in real terms?
Bibbs
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Re: Why has the Toyota MR2 not evolved into the mk4?

Post by Bibbs »

The 3sgte is dead due to emissions.

As are the two current VVTi blocks (140/190).

It's the reason for low pressure turbo's, aparrently you can get better emissions from low blown blocks.

The 2jz, SR20, RB26 are all dead due to being too polluting.
speedtwelve
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Re: Why has the Toyota MR2 not evolved into the mk4?

Post by speedtwelve »

As has been mentioned, the major chunk of first-owner soft-top 2-seat sports cars are bought by people who are far more interested in being flash as opposed to having power/weight or chassis dynamics. Therefore MR2 as previously known is dead.

I've never driven a Mk3. However, I thought the Mk1 was more fun than shooting environmentalists, and reckoned that it had just enough power to be fun. I bought a Mk2 MRT because it had more power and thrust per £ than just about anything else under £5K. I reckon the 'image' is still there. I've had people asking if it's a Porsche etc! Sure it's not the last word in adjustable chassis, but as a performance and handling package out of the box the MRT is hard to beat. (I had an S13 before and it wasn't even close as standard).

I'm planning to move up to an Elise eventually. Handling-wise it's a revelation, but I'll have to spend 3x what the MRT cost to get a good one, and on a circuit how will the lap times compare? Not 3x better I'd bet...
Bobby (aka Shaggar)
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Re: Why has the Toyota MR2 not evolved into the mk4?

Post by Bobby (aka Shaggar) »

Wise words mate. =D>
Urban

Re: Why has the Toyota MR2 not evolved into the mk4?

Post by Urban »

I've only just seen this post and can't be ar$ed to read through...

but the new MX5 is bloody ugly!

What the hell were they thinking with that new front end?? :shock:
Tiamat
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Re: Why has the Toyota MR2 not evolved into the mk4?

Post by Tiamat »

Club Tropicana wrote:I'm a MK2 n/a driver, and while I think the MK2 does have something to offer (and the turbo is very, very quick) the design of the car is getting on now, and I think we should all work harder/smarter (i'm thinking of selling rose-tinted specs to imoc members :mrgreen: ) to buy newer cars.


Why should I have to work harder / smarter to buy a newer car?
Why would I want a newer car?
I am going to live forever, or die trying!
Sharpfish
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warning: long essay ;)

Post by Sharpfish »

The age old debate... I'm a mk1SC owner so you may read 30% bias into my thoughts but I still consider them a fair appraisal of the situation.

LOOKS:
---------
.Mk1 and Mk2's are both outdated.
.Mk3 Looks too bland from the factory but can look great with the right Kit (I even toyed with the idea of getting one before coming to my senses).

Mk3 looks like a boxter from the front, the pros are it looks more expensive and a bit sexy, the cons are it can appear to be a "Poor mans porsche".

Mk2 Looks like a FORD PROBE (bad,bad car) from the front and is swamped in 90's styling cues that today make it look soft and in a no mans land of styling (of course, again nice bodykits can rectify this). The curved rear window looks great, the rear section itself is abit too soft and the front looks wallowy and over-large. From the side it looks sleek and when lowered + good skirts looks very nice. The problem is there are so many of them on the roads (not because they were "better" than a mk1 but because of the car buying climate and the production figures in the 90's). This leads to a complete lack of exoctic or head turning ability on standard cars. I am a fan of all jap cars and will crane my neck unabashedly to look at a car that catches my eye. Only once or twice has a well kitted mk2 ever done that to me. And again, I must stress that from the front they look like fleet cars with pop-ups for the sake of it. ;)

Mk1. Now that all you mk2 owners are frothing at the mouth with what I just said I will point out why the MK1 in my opinion is a styling sucess. The MK1 never set out to be beautiful, it never intentionally tried to capture the "pretty and sleek" segment that the MK2 did. Therefor it did not introduce compromises. It is function over form. Modern cars are now more and more attempting to simulate funtional and purposeful looks over soft, billowy, "pretty" lines because they know that it even though it WILL date quicker it can still be apreciated beyond it's styling sell buy date as something more unique. (oh and it only looks like a mk1 mr2 from the front which is a very good look and doesn't make people think of other cars immediatley as the mk2 and mk3 do!)

Hard lines, wedge shapes, compact dimensions, go-kart looks are all in the mk1 and just like you mk2 guys we don't mean always bog standard 14" wheels, stupid toyota pin stripes and decals everywhere etc. With some subtle mods, tinting, lowering and wheels the mk1 can be made to look far less old fashioned and more importantly of a "who cares what age it is" style. It is a driving machine, and it looks the part. You either love it or hate it. It stands out and get's noticed amongst modern cars which I don't believe the mk2 does as much (unless treated to a veilside or bomex etc).

Of course, the MK1 needs to be rust free and have good paint and preferablly the late style mirrors + colour coding everywhere. In the same way the countach looks dated and ott the mk1 is an icon that relishes it's 80's upbringing. The 90's mk2 tries hard to disguise itself and blend in and take cues from various other cars (both exoctic and not so exoctic) it is a comprise in styling that while not as "old fashioned" looking on paper as a mk1 has no styling pedigree or function over form to make up for it's dated design except for it's mid engine rear deck and window.

Styling sum up: Mk1 obviously looks more dated, but it looks intentionally dated by now, it's so old that it's style has gone around the clock and looks ok and sits well next to todays modern straight edged cars. The mk2 tries too hard to be pretty and looks too soft next to modern cars. It is a pretty coupe and I really got obsessed over them back in the early 90's but the appeal from a styling point of view is short lived. The exception is if you are an owner of course, you will always see the beauty in them. The same way many MK1 owners can see beauty in our so called "boxy" motors. :)

Driving and performance.
------------------------------

I think Lauren has to be correct about handling, modern tech and light weight is going to win. As I bought the MK1 as primarily a fun or great car to *drive* I would have a mk3 over a mk2. If I had been going primarily for looks I would have opted for a mk2 (in the 90s). The best of both worlds (and a boot!) would be the mk1, retaining some of the mk3s compactness, some of the mk2's exoticness while being viritually unique looking... if you can be bothered to repair the rust ;)

Handling on a sorted MK1 is also a great laugh. I don't mean when it steps out of line but within it's capabilities it feels like a "sports car" and not a more numb gt car.

Speed in a straight line. there can be no competition. The mk2 Tubby is king here. Then, if you were just after ultimate speed you probably wouldn't buy ANY mr2 but look elswhere for lighter smaller engine cars or fatter 400bhp+ monsters. Tuning on the mk2 seems fun with many options and plenty of parts. Mk1 tuning is limited, personally I feel a bog standard MK1 Supercharger is plenty of fun for most people, a few mild upgrades get's it keeping up with fast cars and overtaking them in the twisties (many times ;) ). Flat out speed is limited in mk1.

Of course you can drop a mk2 engine in a mk1 these days and kill a mk2 and still look like the car doing it is supposed to do it (angular, wedge shaped).

However, this quote from another post before sums it up really:

"Buts lets face it. All three marks are three completely different cars, they are all loved by their owners no matter what condition they are in, they just happen to share the same name"

And that is were the "problem" is in comparing these cars. Someone who really apreciates a Mk2 is possibly not the same kind of person who falls in love with a mk1. Conversely those with a penchant for swoopy, clean, softer looks will just point and laugh at an angular Mk1.

I am very fond of the looks of the Mk1 because to me they are timeless even though they are technically dated.Not many people ever call them "beautiful" but when you own one, and you keep it polished and ensure you remove or upgrade any very-dated areas you can see it is in fact a beautiful machine with a purpose. It STILL looks like a spaceship on wheels, it still looks like a mini-exotic and it still attracts attention (oh and they are getting rarer by the day). With the sc/tubby + mods they are more than fast enough to back up their looks. A mk2 by comparision is a nice looking GT car of which there are MANY others to choose from. The mk2 has 2 saving graces over modern cars (which also apply to the mk1)

.it is mid engined
.it has pop up headlights ;)

Whichever mark you own though, just remember it's a great car and enjoy it! :)
Last edited by Sharpfish on Tue May 30, 2006 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Urban

Re: Why has the Toyota MR2 not evolved into the mk4?

Post by Urban »

Interesting post

I still think the SW20s are the best looking MR2, which is why I bought one!

I could have afforded a mint Mk1 or an older Mk3, but the Mk2 is the nicest in MY opinion :)
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