[Mk2] [Turbo] Stock Rev2 3SGTE: 487.3bhp & 364.6lbft, 2.2 bar & 8100RPM

[Nic]

I have a Rev3 Turbo, would the stock ECU and fueling cope if a Garrett GT(X)28R with T25/T3 flange adapter was fitted? The reason for the swap would mainly be to improve response rather than to increase hp. Am I correct in thinking the stock injectors at stock fuel pressure should cope upto around 320hp?

[bobhatton]

intresting read would like to know how long it lasts keep up the good work p.s got a rev2 running 302bhp not mapped was thinking of getting it done what would you charge dont want anything to fancy 350bhp would be perfic pm me if you would like to quote me

Convert it to a Rev3 ECU and you will have your 350 hp no mapping needed.

sorry, but that is BS advice.

Have you ever given it a try?

[bobhatton]

I have a Rev3 Turbo, would the stock ECU and fueling cope if a Garrett GT(X)28R with T25/T3 flange adapter was fitted? The reason for the swap would mainly be to improve response rather than to increase hp. Am I correct in thinking the stock injectors at stock fuel pressure should cope upto around 320hp?

Yes that will work. We are just about to do that with a GT4.
The only problem I can think of will be you may well get knock with the boost coming in early, you may have to use octane booster or take your base timing back to 8 deg.

You can change cams and do anything you like but only to the limit of the stock injectors.

We had 302hp out of a Rev2 with stock injectors and a CT20B but with high octane fuel

[greeny]

The knock control is great, it is working most of the time with stock boost.
It can only do so much when the boost it turned up.

Any engine running more than stock boost needs a lower compression or higher octane fuel.

Base timing can be set to say 6 to 8 deg to help but is the wrong way to do it.

Yeah because Toyota would leave the map on the ragged edge like that......

[bobhatton]

The knock control is great, it is working most of the time with stock boost.
It can only do so much when the boost it turned up.

Any engine running more than stock boost needs a lower compression or higher octane fuel.

Base timing can be set to say 6 to 8 deg to help but is the wrong way to do it.

Yeah because Toyota would leave the map on the ragged edge like that......

I think Toyota did a great job as long as the car is in Japan, its when we try to make it work in the UK with UK fuel thats problems come up

[hmltnangel]

All interesting reading and a fair amount of interesting if contrasting views on many subjects.

Whats the concensus for max power/boost on this setup then.
Rev 3 Block/Head etc
Rev 3 ECU
Stock internals
GT2860RS
ST205CC
Decatted with Blitz Nurspec/38mm wastegate
Stock Fueling
Induction Kit

Prob been asked a million times but thought I would ask on a thread where there are a fair amount of different opinions being voiced.

[jimGTS]

Convert it to a Rev3 ECU and you will have your 350 hp no mapping needed.

sorry, but that is BS advice.

Have you ever given it a try?

actually, yes i have! i was one of the first on this forum to carry out a rev3 ecu conversion on my old rev2 some 6+ years ago.


given your advice later in the thread to reduce timing to cope with high boost, how on earth do you expect a stock-ish rev2 to run 350hp with a ct20b at 6-8 degrees of timing on a stock rev3 ecu.
hence why i called BS.

[bobhatton]

sorry, but that is BS advice.

Have you ever given it a try?

actually, yes i have! i was one of the first on this forum to carry out a rev3 ecu conversion on my old rev2 some 6+ years ago.


given your advice later in the thread to reduce timing to cope with high boost, how on earth do you expect a stock-ish rev2 to run 350hp with a ct20b at 6-8 degrees of timing on a stock rev3 ecu.
hence why i called BS.

Because sketchmyster engine has lower compression so will not need to retard the ignition timing, can run higher boost and with a dose of octane booster will have no problem getting to that power.
I am not that far short of that power with a stock Rev 2 ecu a CT 20B at 1.5 bar boost but on 110 octane fuel

[Turbonoz]

Have you ever given it a try?

actually, yes i have! i was one of the first on this forum to carry out a rev3 ecu conversion on my old rev2 some 6+ years ago.


given your advice later in the thread to reduce timing to cope with high boost, how on earth do you expect a stock-ish rev2 to run 350hp with a ct20b at 6-8 degrees of timing on a stock rev3 ecu.
hence why i called BS.

Because sketchmyster engine has lower compression so will not need to retard the ignition timing, can run higher boost and with a dose of octane booster will have no problem getting to that power.
I am not that far short of that power with a stock Rev 2 ecu a CT 20B at 1.5 bar boost but on 110 octane fuel

When I read your advice to simply do a Rev3 conversion and 350bhp is guaranteed with no mapping, I thought you were joking. I'm glad someone else called it BS. You recently compared Syvecs to "Eagle Rods" whilst shouting MOTEC ad infinitum as if you know something others don't, yet you were unable to sort a basic base map for a Link G3....

The only thing keeping your engine in one piece is RACE FUEL.

If you want the power & don't want to use RACE FUEL on a stock ECU, then another option is MAPPING.

Swings & roundabouts. You've spent more in race fuel than I have on my aftermarket EMS, no doubt. Here in the UK we have 99 RON at the pumps. Not 110. I have access to as much race fuel as I can use, so it's not like I have anything against using it, but it's hardly a sensible suggestion for everyday use for the majority of people.

A stock ECU will take care of all of that, far better than any after market one.

This is very incorrect.

With regards to the stock ECU's management of knock, I've induced audible detonation on the stock ECU, so it clearly isn't infallible. Knock control after the fact is not as sensible as preventing it in the first place. How does one guarantee this on a car running too much boost for the stock set up: Race fuel or a bespoke timing map. The reason for all the broken ringlands is due to the stock ECU's inability to control knock until after it's happened (obviously, due to the nature of OEM knock control). More timing retard is required to cease detonation than to prevent it from happening in the first place (hysteresis), plus pulling large amounts of timing after a knock event is not overly clever, either. Your own son destroyed 3 pistons from turning up the boost on a stock ECU, a perfect example of how limited any OEM ECU is. A stock ECU on race fuel not experiencing knock is no better than the stock ECU on regular pump fuel that has allowed so many ringlands to crack. It's so simple, running higher octane fuel means the standard timing map is suitable for increased boost. If you don't want to run race fuel, or require even the slightest degree of control, then you need to ditch the OEM system for the time being.

Race fuel OR mapping.

[Turbonoz]

Can I pick your brains on two issues Turbonoz?

Camshafts
There's a fellow Beams 3S-GE redtop owner who claims to have found a source for drop-in camshafts. They are specced as: "inlet 270 and 11.5 lift. outlet 264 and 11.05 lift".

1] would you expect that the beams ECU would cope with these?
2] would you need supporting changes, like valve springs etc in your estimation?

Superchargers
Another fellow has a supercharger 'kit' that he has essentially pooled together. Composing of:
Rotrex c30-94; SC Bracket to fit Beams; Air inlet pipe; Intercooler; Pipe exit from inter cooler; Oil reservoir; Engine mount to hold intercooler; Belt tensioner and pulley. No blow-off valve, but flange for blow-off valve in exit pipe.

He made a suggestion that "Not 100% sure but i reckon with low boost the OEM ECU will be fine and you should be 250 rwhp". Now he is definitely not the type to try and deceive and isn't making false claims, but it got me wondering. Do you think the stock ECU would handle a few PSI?



Together, on stock internals and stock ECU, this lot would undoubtedly be carnage. I just fancied seeing what you thought!

Hi, sorry for the delay!

Camshafts: I don't know enough about the Beams ECU and engine to be able to answer that, I'm afraid.

Superchargers: Again, I couldn't say without having the car in front of me and running it whilst monitoring AFR & knock.

[bobhatton]

actually, yes i have! i was one of the first on this forum to carry out a rev3 ecu conversion on my old rev2 some 6+ years ago.


given your advice later in the thread to reduce timing to cope with high boost, how on earth do you expect a stock-ish rev2 to run 350hp with a ct20b at 6-8 degrees of timing on a stock rev3 ecu.
hence why i called BS.

Because sketchmyster engine has lower compression so will not need to retard the ignition timing, can run higher boost and with a dose of octane booster will have no problem getting to that power.
I am not that far short of that power with a stock Rev 2 ecu a CT 20B at 1.5 bar boost but on 110 octane fuel

When I read your advice to simply do a Rev3 conversion and 350bhp is guaranteed with no mapping, I thought you were joking. I'm glad someone else called it BS. You recently compared Syvecs to "Eagle Rods" whilst shouting MOTEC ad infinitum as if you know something others don't, yet you were unable to sort a basic base map for a Link G3....

The only thing keeping your engine in one piece is RACE FUEL.

If you want the power & don't want to use RACE FUEL on a stock ECU, then another option is MAPPING.

Swings & roundabouts. You've spent more in race fuel than I have on my aftermarket EMS, no doubt. Here in the UK we have 99 RON at the pumps. Not 110. I have access to as much race fuel as I can use, so it's not like I have anything against using it, but it's hardly a sensible suggestion for everyday use for the majority of people.

A stock ECU will take care of all of that, far better than any after market one.

This is very incorrect.

With regards to the stock ECU's management of knock, I've induced audible detonation on the stock ECU, so it clearly isn't infallible. Knock control after the fact is not as sensible as preventing it in the first place. How does one guarantee this on a car running too much boost for the stock set up: Race fuel or a bespoke timing map. The reason for all the broken ringlands is due to the stock ECU's inability to control knock until after it's happened (obviously, due to the nature of OEM knock control). More timing retard is required to cease detonation than to prevent it from happening in the first place (hysteresis), plus pulling large amounts of timing after a knock event is not overly clever, either. Your own son destroyed 3 pistons from turning up the boost on a stock ECU, a perfect example of how limited any OEM ECU is. A stock ECU on race fuel not experiencing knock is no better than the stock ECU on regular pump fuel that has allowed so many ringlands to crack. It's so simple, running higher octane fuel means the standard timing map is suitable for increased boost. If you don't want to run race fuel, or require even the slightest degree of control, then you need to ditch the OEM system for the time being.

Race fuel OR mapping.

Mapping can not and never will replace high octane fuel or the correct compression ratio, all it can do is bodge things to make an engine run with the wrong ignition advance and fuelling.

Reading your posts it is very clear you are lacking any real knowledge of the way engines work.

[b4nk51e]

Turbonoz how did you get on with the 2 today did you manage to give it a run? I was the bloke with the rev 2 on sunday

[Turbonoz]

Because sketchmyster engine has lower compression so will not need to retard the ignition timing, can run higher boost and with a dose of octane booster will have no problem getting to that power.
I am not that far short of that power with a stock Rev 2 ecu a CT 20B at 1.5 bar boost but on 110 octane fuel

When I read your advice to simply do a Rev3 conversion and 350bhp is guaranteed with no mapping, I thought you were joking. I'm glad someone else called it BS. You recently compared Syvecs to "Eagle Rods" whilst shouting MOTEC ad infinitum as if you know something others don't, yet you were unable to sort a basic base map for a Link G3....

The only thing keeping your engine in one piece is RACE FUEL.

If you want the power & don't want to use RACE FUEL on a stock ECU, then another option is MAPPING.

Swings & roundabouts. You've spent more in race fuel than I have on my aftermarket EMS, no doubt. Here in the UK we have 99 RON at the pumps. Not 110. I have access to as much race fuel as I can use, so it's not like I have anything against using it, but it's hardly a sensible suggestion for everyday use for the majority of people.

A stock ECU will take care of all of that, far better than any after market one.

This is very incorrect.

With regards to the stock ECU's management of knock, I've induced audible detonation on the stock ECU, so it clearly isn't infallible. Knock control after the fact is not as sensible as preventing it in the first place. How does one guarantee this on a car running too much boost for the stock set up: Race fuel or a bespoke timing map. The reason for all the broken ringlands is due to the stock ECU's inability to control knock until after it's happened (obviously, due to the nature of OEM knock control). More timing retard is required to cease detonation than to prevent it from happening in the first place (hysteresis), plus pulling large amounts of timing after a knock event is not overly clever, either. Your own son destroyed 3 pistons from turning up the boost on a stock ECU, a perfect example of how limited any OEM ECU is. A stock ECU on race fuel not experiencing knock is no better than the stock ECU on regular pump fuel that has allowed so many ringlands to crack. It's so simple, running higher octane fuel means the standard timing map is suitable for increased boost. If you don't want to run race fuel, or require even the slightest degree of control, then you need to ditch the OEM system for the time being.

Race fuel OR mapping.

Mapping can not and never will replace high octane fuel or the correct compression ratio, all it can do is bodge things to make an engine run with the wrong ignition advance and fuelling.

Reading your posts it is very clear you are lacking any real knowledge of the way engines work.

Please explain how mapping is a "bodge". That is the single most ridiculous thing I have read on a forum by someone. "Wrong ignition and fuelling". Please explain further.

Turbonoz how did you get on with the 2 today did you manage to give it a run? I was the bloke with the rev 2 on sunday

So good to meet genuine enthusiasts in person (i.e. the Real World).

My stock 3SGTE didn't do too bad. 11.7894s @ 120.58mph on V Power.

Hopefully catch up again at some point

[dawesy]

Mmm.
Mapping, as far as I'm aware is what makes an engine run ( unless we're talking carbs and distributors with points, vac retard and centrifugal advance weights) yes an engine needs to be spec'd for the power wanted but the map is what makes the power.

[b4nk51e]

You'll defo see me again I have Pod fever, but I killed my 4th gear synchro on sunday so got to drop the box off the car & get it rebuilt it should be ready to rock within a couple of weeks. Keep up the good work it's great to see an unconventional approach I'll keep a close eye on this with interest

[Turbonoz]

You'll defo see me again I have Pod fever, but I killed my 4th gear synchro on sunday so got to drop the box off the car & get it rebuilt it should be ready to rock within a couple of weeks. Keep up the good work it's great to see an unconventional approach I'll keep a close eye on this with interest

Cheers man

My stock box has taken a beating for the last couple of years, yet it's always had a crunch into 5th.