How much does a dealer mark up (see inside) - also - dodgy mr2s beware!

[Sharpfish]

In my countrywide search for mr2s, I've been saving a lot of details and taking note of reg numbers for checks (DVLA vehicle enquire and also rac hpi type checks for those i'm interested in buying), I also save a folder of mr2 images for reference (to keep track of dogs that have been tarted up in the future - I've got a lot of reg number references now).

Anyway I noticed a red mr2 for sale that had a reg plate I knew I'd seen.

Turns out this car:

http://www.carandclassic.com/car/C48491

That is for sale from a 'dealer' at £1995 (it's also on ebay)

was recently purchased from this autotrader advert:

http://tinyurl.com/4kxttq

For at most £950 (prob way less with an experienced trader buyer knocking them down).

When bought it had NO MOT and NO TAX (still has no tax). It was put on a SORN in August 2007 (so has sat for nearly a year unused) and got an mot in June after the dealer bought it. This is deduced from the ad details and the DVLA checks. Always check this stuff on a car you are interested in before progressing to a proper HPI check.

I'm not debating whether it's worth near £2k (it could be a very good car that the original seller undervalued) but I wanted to warn people who may be looking at this to factor in the mark up and note that this isn't the first time that dealer has had high priced mr2s for sale that looked 'cleaned up'... Recently they had a dark blue one for sale and I asked some very detailed questions about the car (mainly structural and history) and was completely ignored. Whenever I mention i'm an mr2 owner and interested in the key points certain dealers/sellers clam up and just don't answer the questions written in front of them.

There is also a silver mr2 for sale (private sale not connected to the above) at the moment, I was close to (remote) buying it but the seller just wouldn't answer the questions about the crash damage to the rear (bumper pushed in, lights wonky, overspray), or provide pictures of the underside, apart from an engine shot which is no use, and came down massively on the price (by nearly £1000! - it's now readvertised at 500 more than he offered it to me but £400 less than originally advertised) because they were desperate to sell I think. Again it may be a decent car but frankly it looked like the laziest respray I've seen (this week) - and that was just in photos, masking lines, paint in the engine bay, rust coming through on edges (even the headlights it seems), overspray on nearly all trim, and the underside photo revealed a bent control arm. Again on a car that was originally up for over £2k. I don't think there's much wrong with the car aside from a shocking respray that is probably hiding rust, and it's HPI clear according to my check but it's definitely not as sweet as the advert and 'well chosen' pictures make out. The problem is to read the advert you'd think you are buying one of the best mr2s around, the high price also gives this sense of 'security' and it can be extremely misleading. Treat all cars the same whether high or low price, do your own checks and see through the BS.

So anyone looking for an MR2 do NOT believe af fkin word you are told without getting hands on or doing your own checks, people just do not care if they shaft you so long as they get rid.

Also on this subject there is a dodgy looking mr2 for sale 'somewhere' at the moment with a previous price of around £2.5k. I find it hard believing the details about the VERY LOW mileage and NO REPAIR WORK EVER when the car clearly shows wonky odometer digits AND missing stripes on the rear arch panel, a good sign that it was repainted there.

If you find this post offensive or irritating then you are probably a dishonest seller, hopefully as true mr2 fans you will see I'm just trying to prevent people jumping in feet first on a sale based on the blatant lies and cover ups of many sellers and helping to ruin the rep of 'honest' mr2s that do deserve the premium (ie restored or cherished examples).

If the dealer name above is a problem then mods feel free to edit the links out, i'm just trying to do honest people and unwary buyers a service here and help highligh the del boys of the car world that have always made buying a used car such a pain in the ar$e. I'm just pi$$ed off at wasted journeys and hours of internet comms that are filled with lies, are there any genuine mr2s left for sale?

[Mk1Chris]

Unfortunately, the same can indeed be said for private sellers, and mr2 'enthusiasts'.

Things like a head gasket on the way out, and other known issues can be even better hidden by someone who actually knows the car.

Let the buyer beware.

[Sharpfish]

Unfortunately, the same can indeed be said for private sellers, and mr2 'enthusiasts'.

Things like a head gasket on the way out, and other known issues can be even better hidden by someone who actually knows the car.

Let the buyer beware.

True, as I said, 2 of the sellers above are private sellers.. the dealer thing was more about the mark up than dodgy cars.

It was a private seller I visited a few weeks ago (blue car) selling for £1400 with an advert that made it sound like it had previously belonged to a NUN, but was obviously crash damaged and very badly resprayed (skirts melded onto body with filler and arches ten inches thick with 'temp repair' but looked good to the unwary) - wonky headlighs, bent metal in the bonnet area etc.. not to mention the white mr2 door on the passenger side that had been resprayed blue!

Yes as a lot of potential mr2 owners come here to seek advice I'm only trying to help them be aware instead of letting their emotions get the better of them, it's very hard to walk away from a nice car like the mk1 mr2 when you've never had one before and are desperate for one.

Also the engine stuff, I've not been so focussed on, I'm lucky that I "only" want a decent body with a good shell, but yes take all engine details with a pinch of salt until you can view and meet the seller and judge it better.

Someone is paying money for these cars and encouraging stupid mark ups and dodgy dealing and the less people who fall for it the better we'll all be (Except the dodgy sellers as they will have to forego their garden jaccuzzi or holiday in paris this month)

[Donna MR2]

Great post and good idea keeping the details on them too

[coverco]

Some very interesting points there

I really like the idea of keeping the details of all the cars you have seen and checked out, it would be great to have a database of MK1's with any repair work that they have had. On a 20 year old car you must expect that at some point they have been painted and rust is definately going to be present in some form or another. Maybe we could have a list of owners and registrations of the cars they have owned, if someone goes to see one of the cars on the list they could contact the member who had owned it for any information they have.

When buying MK1's I always expect the worse and am usually proved right but if you are only paying £500 then you can not really complain.

[WeirdNeville]

Yeah, I fully agree, buyer beware.

But when I bought my car, I was lucky that It only had one owner. I told Her I'd owned one before, knew all the places to check for rust, and had a good look around it. All the paperwrok was in tact. It had had a new front wing after someone reversed into the side of it 10 years ago, but no other front end work so I knew it wasn't a front ender with damaged floorpan/bumper bar etc. It had had the arches done by a reputable body shop and it had one patch on the front of the Sill, which looked good quality and properly protected. Other than that, it was mint - floorpans, inner arches, panels all neat and rust free. Garaged all it's life and undersealed too.

I suppose that's the joy of buying from someone who knows a good deal of history for the car, but also it's worth ensuring that work done if legitimate. They are 20 years old, they will have been through some scrapes in their time. It's how the seller deals with it that makes the difference. Open and Honest = Win!

[BIGBOBO]

I saw half a dozen of MR2's before I bought mine (small market )

I drove 2 hours to see one that the owner described as "very good condition" when I got there I was surely disapointed, the white one with a bush growing through it that was posted here a couple of days ago was in better condition.

Sure it had a new engine but when your chassis is rotten and no panel seems to be straight, no thanks. It also sat near a wall that had been painted so it was full of white spots.

The person I bought mine from didn't knew very much about MR2's (He tougt the central locking on the mk1a was broken and the high idle speed when cold wasn't normal either) but he was very honest about everything. Pointed out little things that I didn't notice (flat tire, pit in the windscreen etc). He said he had it serviced once or twice a year but didn't have proof of it, he did use it to drive 30miles to work and back every day so it had to be in OK condition.

[mk1 envy]

This is a good post - helpful for somebody who is in the market for buying a mk1, its very easy to fall for the charm of owning a mk1

I think the way youve got to look at the mk1 is that it is a 20 year old car and your never going to have one that gives you no trouble - my first mr2 never let me down mechanically but it did have a bit of rust but i didnt mind, i bought it from a friend and was happy with the price i paid

My second and current one- was in top condition when i bought it - much better than my first one and £400 cheaper - i bought from a very honest seller - he laid out every minor scratch , every mechanical thing that had been done and gone wrong for him - he didnt try to hide anything - and yet i am in the middle of replacing the head gasket - so lesson is that even if you do get a good example - a car of this age will no doubt have problems

I think thats half the charm of the mk1 - you dont love it properly until stuck through the bad along with the good

[Sharpfish]

Thanks for all the replies, I thought I'd only have negative responses.

I want to make it clear, I'm not looking for the 'perfect' MR2 i'm looking for 'honest' MR2s. As a few of your said, honesty is what we should look for.

I'm quite prepared to buy a car that's had work or has rust (in non structural places) IF the seller is up front and that is reflected in the price.

I would be as happy paying £1500 for a genuine good condition car with minor issues as I would paying £500 for one that I think will need new arches soon and a respray, as long as I know in advance (esp if driving far to see it) and the whole post is really directed at cars that ARE bad (structural stuff badly repaired and covered by underseal, clocked cars, ones with badly repaired arches that look good, and esp poorly resprayed cars that are hiding a lot of problems that you just can't see) that are not being sold for the price those faults would indicate, the 'tarted up' ones in other words who's high price gives a false sense of worth. There are genuine low and high priced cars but most of the cars i'm referring to are over the £1000 mark where it's made worthwhile to the seller to lie a bit or be 'creative' with the truth. I've not seen many £500 cars that have lies attached to them as there's no point for that money, and I love those cars as I see each one as a potential project with little to loose (even if I end up parting out/scrapping at worst case - it's not too much to loose)

I do expect some rust and the odd minor dent, scratch or paint fade, I even expect the sills to eventually disintergrate (as they did on my current car) and am prepared to fit new ones and factor that into the mk1 experience, but it's good to reach a compromise with the seller that takes into account these 'features' of a mk1 so that you don't end up feeling guliable and ripped of in 6 months.

So mk1s with all their faults are not the problem, as someone else said if you are paying £500 then you can't complain and I agree, If I buy a £500 mr2 (which I very well might) I will know it needs a fair bit of work and am prepared for that, so long as it checks out in the important structural areas for me, but had I paid £1500 for one that was made to look like a very good car but turned out to be comparable to a £500 car then I would be annoyed with the seller and myself.

So that's it really, just try and get the car you are happy with regardless of it's condition, from a £200 restoration project to a genuine £2.5k 'almost mint' example but don't take the seller's word for anything.

It's good to hear there are some honest sellers out there, I'm getting better at spotting them even if the car turns out to be not what i'm looking for. I don't need them to highlight every flaw but when asked (esp if I'm travelling and can just tell for myself) I'd like straight answers. I'll give money to honest sellers and run a mile from evasive ones or bare faced liars. You have to persist with your questions, any genuine seller is going to be happy to answer your concerns.

I've owned 2 mk1s but never sold one but if I did I know for a fact that I could NOT lie to someone, I'd make a useless salesman I know that (in fact in a past job I was so disgusted with the lies we were supposed to tell customers that I just couldn't carry on doing it and ended up doing something else).

Money is the problem, it turns many people into evil idiots.

[Sharpfish]

Oh I forgot, I want to stress that the first car mentioned in this thread is a seperate issue from the other cars and how the thread developed. I'm not implying it's a tarted up scrapper, it does look quite good and may be worth the asking price to someone, It just made me angry because I was actually thinking of going to look at that car in it's original £950 guise as it was less than 100 miles from me, but then the dealer 'snatches' it up and takes it 150 miles away and adds £1100 onto it. That's why I was annoyed with that

As I said I know nothing of the condition of that particular car nor am I saying the dealer is definitely dodgy (other than obviously making a lot of cash for not a lot of work).

[Superfly]

I bought mine almost by mistake on ebay for £641. Seller was honest in the sense he had taken it in part ex and it was sold as seen. Put a bid in just for fun and hey presto! Not a bad example either. Sure, i've replaced the ripped leather seats (cloth ones - £20 ebay!) and there are some rust issues but on the whole happy. Maybe just got lucky and certainly not the best way to buy but at that price i took a gamble. The way i see it is that maintaining and/or improving the car is half the fun so unless its a complete shed you can't go far wrong at the price i paid.

[Blue1984]

Cheers for the heads up, good idea to post this.

[coverco]

There are some sellers who are not dishonest but really don't know much about the car

My third car was bought off Ebay for £500 and was from someone I had helped out with some parts, he had spent a lot of money on the car but had all the work done in garages. He was a nice guy but really did not have much of an idea about the car or its condition. He had some welding done at the drivers side ARB mount and they did a real botch job, but as he had never been under the car he was unaware of this.

I suppose my point is that if there are problems on the car the seller is not always dishonest, they may just be unaware. If you are paying £500 then you are likely to find problems if you are going to pay more then check all the weak spots before parting with your cash

[waynestoyotamr2]

Had exactly the same frustrations as yourself Sharpfish, to the point where I am honestly giving up going to look at Mk1's anymore, or reading adverts and thinking "it wont be as good as it looks"

Went to one today, 8G2 in Chorley, Lancs, it was at a trader, so gave him a call, agreed to pop up this afternoon, asked him about rust, previous MOT's, running order etc.... He said it was (and I quote) an "amazing example" - I thought whatever, but I did give it an overall chance as it only had 53k on the clock.

Got there, car was tucked away in the corner, went over and I had a nosey, arches, passable - not perfect, but not rusted through, it passed my first test, it was packed in next to another car, so I gave the dealer a knock and asked him to move it into some space so I could have a proper look round.

First thing he said back to me was "dont let this put you off......" as soon as he started with this, I just thought, here we go! But apparently a trainee had pressure washed the engine, the car was running very lumpy - totally believable - but I said why did you tell me it was running "like a dream" on the phone??? No response.

Anyway, I moved round the back, and around the join above the exhaust was masking tape, clearly it had been sprayed recently, it had certainly been filled quite badly. I remembered this thread and removed the masking tape and threw it to one side.

I went into the office and said its in good shape, can I have a look at the documents? He passed me the service book - which for me, rightly or wrongly, counts for nothing. I said have you got the previous MOTs - which he said he had ALL of them on the phone to me, he passed me one, the current one, again, I asked him why he said he had ALL of them on the phone to me, he said he got mixed up with another car - SIGH!!!

Then the killer blow - "have you done any work on the bodywork of the car?" - "no, its 100% original" he said. I said "honestly?" he said "yes" I said I know you must of done some work on the car, as there was masking tape from a recent spray job at the rear ........ silence ...... and a blank look from the dealer.

I broke the silence by saying "sorry, the car isnt for me"

Handed him the keys, and walked out of his office.

As I was getting in my car, to top the whole experience, as he was locking up the MR2 - he said to his young assistant "yeah, another ***king time waster"

All in all, it was another fantastic experience viewing Mk1 MR2's!!!!

[mk1 envy]

I dont think id ever buy a mk1 from a dealer unless it was a jap specialist - and even then some of them are full of s*it!

Most dealers get mk1's in as part-ex's for other cars, they think they are worth a lot more than they actually are - i always see mk1's advertised by dealers at about £2500- £3000 and i just laugh and think no way mate!

Bought both mine through private sellers - think this is defo the best way to buy a mk1 - obviously there are dodgy private sellers aswell but i just generally find the dealers to be full of crap and no very little about the mk1's

Teegs x

[jrleech]

My latest Mk1, an '87 White T-Bar with 88k on the clock and 2 previous owners 'developed' a few problems just after I bought it... these were new ones on me!

Firstly, the guy I bought it off had a very nice vintage Lotus Elan +2, and a racing spec old Mini, so I thought he knew what he was doing... wrong.

He said he'd had some building work done, and the builders had put some ladders then some heavy things on the roof of the car, denting the front bit above the windscreen. He said he'd had it touched up.

A week after I bought it, the windscreen cracked, from the top, all the way to the bottom. Took the car to my mates at the bodyshop, phoned Autoglass and out came the screen. Under the top trim, was a load of white silicone sealant, the bathroom variety. When the screen came out, the whole bit that it sits on at the top was rusted. For how bad it looked, it cleaned up very well, with plenty of metal left, so I reckon can't have been going for more than a year. The headlining was also siliconed up, obviously in an effort to stop the water leaking in. That's all sorted and like new now (apart from the windscreen - the one Autoglass fitted is cloudy so has to be replaced again!).

The garage also spotted the water pump is leaking very slightly. Not a big job, and I'll do the cambelt at the same time, but a PITA non the less.

Muppet sellers

Anyway, here's the car: http://www.mr2.me.uk/WhiteMk1.html

So, even if you know what you're looking for, you still get caught out.

[HT]

Had exactly the same frustrations as yourself Sharpfish, to the point where I am honestly giving up going to look at Mk1's anymore, or reading adverts and thinking "it wont be as good as it looks"

Went to one today, 8G2 in Chorley, Lancs, it was at a trader, so gave him a call, agreed to pop up this afternoon, asked him about rust, previous MOT's, running order etc.... He said it was (and I quote) an "amazing example" - I thought whatever, but I did give it an overall chance as it only had 53k on the clock.

Got there, car was tucked away in the corner, went over and I had a nosey, arches, passable - not perfect, but not rusted through, it passed my first test, it was packed in next to another car, so I gave the dealer a knock and asked him to move it into some space so I could have a proper look round.

First thing he said back to me was "dont let this put you off......" as soon as he started with this, I just thought, here we go! But apparently a trainee had pressure washed the engine, the car was running very lumpy - totally believable - but I said why did you tell me it was running "like a dream" on the phone??? No response.

Anyway, I moved round the back, and around the join above the exhaust was masking tape, clearly it had been sprayed recently, it had certainly been filled quite badly. I remembered this thread and removed the masking tape and threw it to one side.

I went into the office and said its in good shape, can I have a look at the documents? He passed me the service book - which for me, rightly or wrongly, counts for nothing. I said have you got the previous MOTs - which he said he had ALL of them on the phone to me, he passed me one, the current one, again, I asked him why he said he had ALL of them on the phone to me, he said he got mixed up with another car - SIGH!!!

Then the killer blow - "have you done any work on the bodywork of the car?" - "no, its 100% original" he said. I said "honestly?" he said "yes" I said I know you must of done some work on the car, as there was masking tape from a recent spray job at the rear ........ silence ...... and a blank look from the dealer.

I broke the silence by saying "sorry, the car isnt for me"

Handed him the keys, and walked out of his office.

As I was getting in my car, to top the whole experience, as he was locking up the MR2 - he said to his young assistant "yeah, another ***king time waster"

All in all, it was another fantastic experience viewing Mk1 MR2's!!!!

I think you've just had a typical 'del boy' car dealer type experience - thats so annoying when your time is wasted needlessly.

On a wider note I don't think any of the problems associated in this thread are particular to buying a mk1 mr2 - but are rather generic descriptions of dodgy sellers.

[GaryR]

Had exactly the same frustrations as yourself Sharpfish, to the point where I am honestly giving up going to look at Mk1's anymore, or reading adverts and thinking "it wont be as good as it looks"

You too huh? I've been looking for a while, saw one on autotrader a month or so ago, looked good from the picture, 75k miles, tidy original wheels, long MOT. Went too see it, first impression was that it didn't have the original wheels from the photo, but some cheap (old) after market alloys, rear aches and general bodywork was good, but the headlights didn't fit flush to the bonnet, full service history, including all old MOT but the engine bay was covered in orange water marks, which was the same colour as the water in the expansion bottle. Inside the service history I found a recept for a new front bumper and wing, and the long MOT turned out to be 3 months, although the dealer said he could put a full one on it if I wanted.

I went away to think about it, and decided it wasn't for me by the time I had got home.

I'm being to think that the car I want just isn't out there........ I guess 20 years is a long time.

[Sharpfish]

I'm being to think that the car I want just isn't out there........ I guess 20 years is a long time.

If you are prepared to spend £1k+ on doing it up (welding/paint/suspension etc) as needed and get the car at an honest price then it's basically up to the mr2 fanatic to find and buy the car at a good price and decide to restore it themselves, yes 20 years is a long time, I think mk1s are actually in really good condition (esp interiors and superficial stuff) compared to most consumer cars of the same age but the prices asked for the tidied up models makes it risky. And if you just want to buy a good one then it does cost more but maybe only 1 in 10 are actually as described, so I know the feeling. It wasn't like this when I bought my first mr2 (2001) they were more expensive for sure (2500 for both of mine in that year) but in general it seemed only 1 in 5 were dogs now it's 1 in 5 that are good.

They still remain one of my favourite cars of all time (cost not object), based mostly on their design and partly on their performance/handling, it's just the sum of the parts for me, hard to describe to people who hate them or think they look like boxes on wheels.

Mk1s themselves I can not fault (ok aside from the rust and the leaky T-bars ) but then the cars were probably only meant to last around 7 years in the first place, I'm just glad it was Toyota that built them and not British Leyland

[jrleech]

They still remain one of my favourite cars of all time (cost not object), based mostly on their design and partly on their performance/handling, it's just the sum of the parts for me, hard to describe to people who hate them or think they look like boxes on wheels.

I quite agree... nothing out there seems to have the combination of go-kartness, fun, performance, practicality, fun and cool styling that the Mk1 has. If price was no object, then I think a Ferrari 250 GT SWB Berlinetta would be my choice, but short of £800k, the Mk1 wins