Cracked Block info

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Bry
Posts: 3262
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:38 pm
Location: Kent

Cracked Block info

Post by Bry »

Taken from mr2oc.com

there IS actually a water channel between the two middle bores... its effectively a steam ventilation channel... to prevent a buildup of boiling/steam.

Both gen II and gen III blocks have it

Now.. I have cracked a lot of blocks.. and it may surprise you all to know that Ive cracked both the gen II and gen III block in exactly the above fashion, picture perfect.

Whats more.. Ive cracked it on both cyl 2 and cyl 3! Its not restricted to one thinner wall.

And on top of what, Ive had a block sleeved in both #2 and #3 to remove casting defects etc with high quality iron sleeves.. .and I have cracked THEM too.

This has been a major issue for me over the past few years.. so Ive done a lot of research into why it happens. My current knowledge suggests that it is steam related... because the ventilation holes between 2 & 3 arent effective enough when cylinder wall temps rise too far. You will notice that on all 3sgte blocks, the vents between 2 and 3 are actually different to that of between 1/2 and 3/4. This was revised and improved on later model 5SFE blocks.. but Im yet to put one to the test.

My current motor has been free of cracking.. the solution? 1.3 bar radiator cap... to try and raise the boiling threshold.. and RICH tuning to keep cylinder wall temps down. On top of that, the stock manifold has gone.. removing the tendency to favour #2 and #3.. making them run leaner and hotter

I can go into more detail about any of that if you wish
Watch out OZ here I come !!
Fonzy
Posts: 1057
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 9:33 pm
Location: 3S Service Centre

Re: Cracked Block info

Post by Fonzy »

nice post mate! =D>
Bry
Posts: 3262
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:38 pm
Location: Kent

Re: Cracked Block info

Post by Bry »

Fonzy wrote:nice post mate! =D>


Just checked my rad cap and it's 0.9kgm 8-[ Might get me a 1.2bar one :D
Watch out OZ here I come !!
Andy F
Posts: 2384
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 8:08 pm
Location: Leeds utd

Re: Cracked Block info

Post by Andy F »

Bry wrote:
Fonzy wrote:nice post mate! =D>


Just checked my rad cap and it's 0.9kgm 8-[ Might get me a 1.2bar one :D


Hi Bry
Do we know who wrote that???
Bry
Posts: 3262
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:38 pm
Location: Kent

Re: Cracked Block info

Post by Bry »

Andy F wrote:
Bry wrote:
Fonzy wrote:nice post mate! =D>


Just checked my rad cap and it's 0.9kgm 8-[ Might get me a 1.2bar one :D


Hi Bry
Do we know who wrote that???


Yes mate,but you'd have to join the above mentioned club in order to speak to him.PM me for details :)
Watch out OZ here I come !!
GeoffC320
Posts: 2776
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2005 3:32 pm
Location: Caterham

Re: Cracked Block info

Post by GeoffC320 »

Very interesting. Mine had a 1.3 bar cap when it came in from Japan. Nice to know that may well be a VERY worthwhile mod! :D
stevecordiner
Posts: 875
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 7:34 pm
Location: Desk

Re: Cracked Block info

Post by stevecordiner »

Andy F wrote:
Bry wrote:
Fonzy wrote:nice post mate! =D>


Just checked my rad cap and it's 0.9kgm 8-[ Might get me a 1.2bar one :D


Hi Bry
Do we know who wrote that???


It was Tristan aka Flupstar on the US boards. He's a quite knowledgable aussie chap who's been playing with MR2's for quite a few years now.

www.wtfauto.com is his site.

Nice chap.

Quite a lot of the US guys go with changing the cap and thermostat as on a number of blown engines you find signs of boiling around number 2 and 3 IIRC.
Small turbos - they're not big and they're not clever!

Just say NO to small turbos!
stevecordiner
Posts: 875
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 7:34 pm
Location: Desk

Re: Cracked Block info

Post by stevecordiner »

His current build spec for his car is

""
Engine
King Main bearings
NDC Rod bearings
NDC Thrust washers
2.2 Litre 5SFE stroker crank, balanced
ARP main studs
ARP rod bolts
Pauter forged X-beam rods
Arias forged custom stroker pistons
Perfect Circle file-to-fit chrome rings
ARP head studs
Performance Springs' 65lb valve springs
HKS 272 degree 9.4mm Camshafts
CC'd and mildly ported Gen III head
TTE 1.4mm Head Gasket
Simota Oil breather filter
TRD Mechanical 2 way LSD
OS Giken chrome-moly lightweight flywheel
OS Giken twin plate, solid centre clutch.
Custom solid shifter cable mounts
"WTF Auto" Custom stainless steel exhaust manifold
"WTF Auto" Custom tuned length intake manifold with twin throttles
Garrett GT3540 ball bearing turbo fitted with a 1.06 A/R exhaust housing.
Tial 38mm external wastegate
Super-X twin 2.5" mufflers on 3" stainless exhaust system
Stainless intake pipework
Custom fabricated tube & fin intercooler (By Mick’s Metalcraft, NSW) - 600x300x70mm.
Twin 10" cooling fans
Blitz C1 6" stainless intake filter
Polyurethane solid engine mounts with additional body bracing welded in.
Modified S15 200SX plumb back blow off valve
HKS fuel rail
Denso 800cc injectors
HKS Adjustable Fuel Pressure Regulator
Bosch "910" fuel pump
JZA80 Supra TT lifter fuel pump
Earls braided lines & fittings
Apexi Power FC ECU with FC Datalogit
Greddy Profec B Spec II Electronic boost controller""
Small turbos - they're not big and they're not clever!

Just say NO to small turbos!
Bry
Posts: 3262
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:38 pm
Location: Kent

Re: Cracked Block info

Post by Bry »

Alot of very clever and ingenious guys on that site =D>
Watch out OZ here I come !!
MR2Mania
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Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2004 10:37 pm
Location: UK
Contact:

Re: Cracked Block info

Post by MR2Mania »

Interesting!

My own personal theory on it was that, as cyliinder pressures increase (ie you run more boost or power), the thin wall eventually collapses. Since the thin part is only at one part of the bore, this tends to form a vertical crack.

Increasing the coolant pressure may help, as this would be pushing against the extra cylinder pressure. So the higher coolant pressure could be making the cylinder wall effectively more rigid.

However, I'm wondering if just putting on the higher rated cap will in fact make the coolant system run more pressure. After all, if it DID increase pressure, this would imply that with the stock rad cap, the coolant is constantly pushing the cap open. If this were the case, we'd have a coolant problem, and coolant would be p!ssing into the reservoir, which in itself wouldn't help the block, as it would probably overheat the engine. :?
Fonzy
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Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 9:33 pm
Location: 3S Service Centre

Re: Cracked Block info

Post by Fonzy »

I would love to see some data confirming water pressure against engine temp and boost pressure on a tuned engine, my 2.2 conversion came with a shimmed water pump for higher pressure i believe this to be common in the states too. I have noticed us uk boys slap loads of bits to our engines but dont consider the engines hot spots and are happy so long as the overall water temps are ok. :-k
MR2Mania
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Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2004 10:37 pm
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Contact:

Re: Cracked Block info

Post by MR2Mania »

Fonzy wrote:I would love to see some data confirming water pressure against engine temp and boost pressure on a tuned engine, my 2.2 conversion came with a shimmed water pump for higher pressure i believe this to be common in the states too. I have noticed us uk boys slap loads of bits to our engines but dont consider the engines hot spots and are happy so long as the overall water temps are ok. :-k


Are you sure it's the water pump that came shimmed up, and not the oil pump?? I can't see how a shimmed water pump can do anything.
MR2Mania
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Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2004 10:37 pm
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Re: Cracked Block info

Post by MR2Mania »

From physics, we can see that the higher the pressure of a fluid, the higher the boiling point will be. Also, when looking at water, adding impurities like salt raise the boiling point (I guess this is the same as anti-freeze).

As far as I can tell, you can't raise the pressure of the coolant system, but you can raise the threshold at which the pressure will be released (this is what the uprated pressure cap does).
Fonzy
Posts: 1057
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 9:33 pm
Location: 3S Service Centre

Re: Cracked Block info

Post by Fonzy »

oil water water oil water oil water water, all the same isnt it mate! :wink:
you are right it was the oil pump, :-# shoulda checked my spec before opening me big mouth! lol, if its not possible to mod the water pump maybe a replacement would work to get higher pressure, i reckon the nutta JJ could have a bash! there must be a pump that could do the job, maybe and external jobbie or similar! =P~
Bry
Posts: 3262
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:38 pm
Location: Kent

Re: Cracked Block info

Post by Bry »

Here's a reply from another guy on the block cracking thread on mr2oc.com


That's really strange for it to go in between two cylinders arather than on one of the faces that recieve lateral pressure.

I was actually speaking with one of the technicians for the Toyota factory rally team down here in Australia over Easter. They run a current shape Corolla with a full ST205 running gear swapped into it, including the Gen3 3S. The team was running three cars last year.

He told me they had a terrible time with cracking blocks last year. This was due to a fault in the casting. When they had the blocks Xrayed it turned out that the core was shifted so the bore was much closer to the water gallery on one side than on the other. This was with brand new blocks straight from Toyota.

Apparently they now X-ray all the new blocks.
Watch out OZ here I come !!
MR2Mania
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Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2004 10:37 pm
Location: UK
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Re: Cracked Block info

Post by MR2Mania »

Fonzy wrote:oil water water oil water oil water water, all the same isnt it mate! :wink:
you are right it was the oil pump, :-# shoulda checked my spec before opening me big mouth! lol, if its not possible to mod the water pump maybe a replacement would work to get higher pressure, i reckon the nutta JJ could have a bash! there must be a pump that could do the job, maybe and external jobbie or similar! =P~


LOL! Easily done, mate.

In order to get the standard pump to build more pressure, I'd imagine you'd have to spin it faster, and currently that's controlled by the cambelt. So it would probably have to be an external pump (ie gut the current water pump, and just run the pulley so that this doesn't affect the cambelt's path) if you want change the characteristics of the coolant system. Again, with JJ's IMMENSE rebuild experience, he would be the best to comment - Come on grandad! Add your 2p's worth to this discussion!!! ;)
MR2Mania
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Re: Cracked Block info

Post by MR2Mania »

Bry, now THAT is more inline with what we've been seeing over here (ie the info we've been getting from Fraser and Fensport, etc).

Basically, the offending blocks were apparently cast "on-the-p!ss", ie one side of the cylinder walls was thinner than the opposite side, and hence the cracking tended to occur on the thin side, most often than not on cylinder no 2.

Bry wrote:Taken from mr2oc.com

there IS actually a water channel between the two middle bores... its effectively a steam ventilation channel... to prevent a buildup of boiling/steam.

Both gen II and gen III blocks have it

Now.. I have cracked a lot of blocks.. and it may surprise you all to know that Ive cracked both the gen II and gen III block in exactly the above fashion, picture perfect.

Whats more.. Ive cracked it on both cyl 2 and cyl 3! Its not restricted to one thinner wall.

And on top of what, Ive had a block sleeved in both #2 and #3 to remove casting defects etc with high quality iron sleeves.. .and I have cracked THEM too.

This has been a major issue for me over the past few years.. so Ive done a lot of research into why it happens. My current knowledge suggests that it is steam related... because the ventilation holes between 2 & 3 arent effective enough when cylinder wall temps rise too far. You will notice that on all 3sgte blocks, the vents between 2 and 3 are actually different to that of between 1/2 and 3/4. This was revised and improved on later model 5SFE blocks.. but Im yet to put one to the test.

My current motor has been free of cracking.. the solution? 1.3 bar radiator cap... to try and raise the boiling threshold.. and RICH tuning to keep cylinder wall temps down. On top of that, the stock manifold has gone.. removing the tendency to favour #2 and #3.. making them run leaner and hotter

I can go into more detail about any of that if you wish
Bry
Posts: 3262
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:38 pm
Location: Kent

Re: Cracked Block info

Post by Bry »

The offending crack
Image
Image

For some reason the pics don't work on here?
Here's a link
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v202/ ... crack2.bmp
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v202/ ... 5454uj.bmp
Last edited by Bry on Fri Apr 08, 2005 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Watch out OZ here I come !!
MR2Mania
Posts: 2149
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2004 10:37 pm
Location: UK
Contact:

Re: Cracked Block info

Post by MR2Mania »

Bry wrote:The offending crack
Image
Image

For some reason the pics don't work on here?


Yep, that's the crack!

It's probably because those files are bitmaps (ie bmps), and the forum probably only supports GIFs and JPEGs as image formats (I'm guessing though).
Bry
Posts: 3262
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:38 pm
Location: Kent

Re: Cracked Block info

Post by Bry »

MR2Mania wrote:
Bry wrote:The offending crack
Image
Image

For some reason the pics don't work on here?


Yep, that's the crack!

It's probably because those files are bitmaps (ie bmps), and the forum probably only supports GIFs and JPEGs as image formats (I'm guessing though).


Dino,do you think there would be any reason not to fit a higher pressure rad cap?
Watch out OZ here I come !!
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