[Mk2] [NA] 264 degree cams in a 3SGE - any other supporting mods required

[SonicSW20]

Save the 'NA tuning isn't worth it, swap a turbo in' speeches, I know that, this is purely academic.

Can the stock NA ECU handle 264 degree cams? A set of vernier pulleys will obviously be a good idea for tuning, would any other mods (valve springs?) be required for them? Piper Cams list uprated valve springs and head gasket on the page for the cams as associated parts which makes me wonder if they would need upgrading to support the cams.

Assuming the stock ECU can handle the 264's OK, is there any way to raise the rev limiter? I would assume 264's would benefit from another few hundred RPM to play with?

[rev3turbo]

edit. leave the loser to it

[SonicSW20]

pointless

you need verniers and ecu + mapping

still pointless

Did you read the first sentence?

[rev3turbo]

edit. leave the loser to it

[SonicSW20]

yeah it said: "Save the 'NA tuning isn't worth it, swap a turbo in' speeches, I know that, this is purely academic"

which i didnt comment on

anyway ill refrain from giving you advice, even though ive lots of knowledge and experience on the subject, but i summed it up in my last post.

It didn't seem like you did because of the 'pointless' comments. If you're going to 'refrain' from giving advice, why bother posting at all?

[rev3turbo]

yeah it said: "Save the 'NA tuning isn't worth it, swap a turbo in' speeches, I know that, this is purely academic"

which i didnt comment on

anyway ill refrain from giving you advice, even though ive lots of knowledge and experience on the subject, but i summed it up in my last post.

It didn't seem like you did because of the 'pointless' comments. If you're going to 'refrain' from giving advice, why bother posting at all?

because i started giving you advice, then you became an ungrateful ++++. anyway enjoy the pointless NA tuning

[SonicSW20]

Nice edits. Thanks for the contribution.

[fred130111]

I am not a pro at all, but I have been reading a fair bit about the Beams 3SGE which is N/A and people do all sorts to them, but yet seem to avoid being told its pointless.

From what I have seen you can get fair gains from a standalone ECU, cams etc but because it is more cost effective to buy a turbo that is all people seem to say.

Beams engines and the K20 honda engines seem to have a lot of attention with regards to N/A tuning so look there for ideas

I would love a turbo and will one day get one, But until then I do like to fiddle around with my N/A.

[mr2magic]

As long as there is no vvt(i) control involved, the stock ecu won't even know the cams are different - in that respect the ECU can handle any cam. The question is, whether the standard map can compensate for the increased VE. The stock cams are what 244, 248? So you're ramping them up a bit.....It will make a difference but whether positive or negative, i can't say.

Maybe bob or peter?

[Ben]

Maybe something like an Omex 600 ECU would help?

http://omextechnology.co.uk/page75.html

No idea if they'd work on on the 3S-GE, but they're popular with the kit car crew for mappable ignition/injection. I've seen 4A-GEs running close to 200bhp normally aspirated with an Omex system, but this was paired with a pretty serious engine build IIRC.

[SonicSW20]

Thanks both. It makes sense that there's not a lot of aftermarket support for the non BEAMS NA as all platforms it was used in had the 3SGTE available, which is obviously the best route for a power upgrade.

Same Fred - mine will eventually have a turbo conversion. Just a case of waiting for the right engine / crashed Rev3 Turbo to come up for sale.

As said, it's purely an academic discussion, I've not got any intention of modding my NA in this way. I was just browsing Nengun the other day and spotted a few nice looking bits and then spent some time researching NA tuning for the 3SGE - not a huge amount of info out there really.

For stock cams, I've seen 252 degrees mentioned in a few places (all forum posts so not necessarily accurate!) for the intake cam, and 240 or 242 for the exhaust cam. That's for the Rev3+ 3SGE. Rev1/2 is 244 on both apparently.

[mr2magic]

If your going for cheap engine management then megasquirt or ecumaster are really unbeatable.......and can be used on a turbo later aswell

[SonicSW20]

Maybe something like an Omex 600 ECU would help?

http://omextechnology.co.uk/page75.html

No idea if they'd work on on the 3S-GE, but they're popular with the kit car crew for mappable ignition/injection. I've seen 4A-GEs running close to 200bhp normally aspirated with an Omex system, but this was paired with a pretty serious engine build IIRC.

I don't see why it wouldn't work. People have used those on a 3SGTE

[fred130111]

Have a look into the power deck spacer Gazza

http://www.imoc.co.uk/forums/viewtopic. ... 7&start=60

Not seen a bad word about them, expensive for what it is but apparently worth it


I don't know a great deal about this sort of stuff but a Rev 3 3SGE is not that far from 200bhp standard, is it really all that difficult to get anywhere near that figure?

Have seen a couple of dyno print outs with people getting around 190BHP but I guess this could be to do with a crappy dyno.

[SonicSW20]

I wouldn't put too much stock in dyno print outs and estimated flywheel HP, too many variables. I seem to remember a chap on Facebook having a 200 and something bhp printout for his Rev3, only mods were intake, decat and exhaust.

What's the downside to those spacers? There must be some kind of trade off otherwise Toyota would have made them that size in the first place.

[fred130111]

Yeah I guess with high mileage and the age of these things now it probably is unlikely without a fair bit of money being thrown at them.

I honestly have no idea, I have seen that question pop up a few times but no one has ever actually answered it but the people who I have spoke to that use them say they help

[SonicSW20]

It would be interesting to see some back to back testing on the same dyno to see what it's actually doing.

[ashley]

Save the 'NA tuning isn't worth it, swap a turbo in' speeches, I know that, this is purely academic.

Can the stock NA ECU handle 264 degree cams? A set of vernier pulleys will obviously be a good idea for tuning, would any other mods (valve springs?) be required for them? Piper Cams list uprated valve springs and head gasket on the page for the cams as associated parts which makes me wonder if they would need upgrading to support the cams.

Assuming the stock ECU can handle the 264's OK, is there any way to raise the rev limiter? I would assume 264's would benefit from another few hundred RPM to play with?

If you're thinking of the high lift 264's, then probably worth increasing your valve spring rates to avoid valve float.

I've been "advised" that the stock rod boltss are fine for 8k rpm, but I would be tempted to stick a set of ARP rod bolts in as well.

But as discussed already, you probably want a mappable ecu to realise the benefits of the swap

[Jayridium]

In addition to the above mods, I'd say if your going to have the cams out I'd recommend port matching the heads to the manifoldsand do the obvious breathing mods exhaust and induction kit etc. With underdrive pulleys and lightened flywheel it would be a really zippy lively rev happy engine, feeling a lot faster than its dyno graphs would suggest it should

[bobhatton]

Save the 'NA tuning isn't worth it, swap a turbo in' speeches, I know that, this is purely academic.

Can the stock NA ECU handle 264 degree cams? A set of vernier pulleys will obviously be a good idea for tuning, would any other mods (valve springs?) be required for them? Piper Cams list uprated valve springs and head gasket on the page for the cams as associated parts which makes me wonder if they would need upgrading to support the cams.

Assuming the stock ECU can handle the 264's OK, is there any way to raise the rev limiter? I would assume 264's would benefit from another few hundred RPM to play with?

If you want real power you need to go a lot bigger with the cams, something like 285 or 300.
You will get a small amount more with the 264 and the ECU will sort itself out ok with them.

Do not change the front pulley or the flywheel, they will not give any power increase and can damage the crankshaft.