Do You Heel and Toe

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Do You Heel and Toe

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aaronjb
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Re: Do You Heel and Toe

Post by aaronjb »

jonb- wrote:Tell that to the car i nearly re-ended many moons ago when playing in the MG. If you get it above a "bit" too much and you're not fully committed on the brakes you can have quite a lurch.


Especially when you're getting used to it as (if you're anything like me) you tend to lift off the brakes a little when kicking the accellerator down..

I'll get the hang of it eventually :lol: Right now about one in ten are done right I reckon :whistle:

Having said that, I don't believe I ever drive committed (read: fast) enough on the road to need the stability into corners that heel & toe can give you.. on the track yep, I could see it helping, but for me on the road it's more about sounding cool changing down :lol: (And I could cheat to do that - get an SMT, and let the electronics do it for me ;))
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Lauren
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Re: Do You Heel and Toe

Post by Lauren »

jonb- wrote:
Lauren wrote:A bit too much really doesn't matter, though with practice you can get it spot on most of the time.


Tell that to the car i nearly re-ended many moons ago when playing in the MG. If you get it above a "bit" too much and you're not fully committed on the brakes you can have quite a lurch.


Braking is your priority but i do understand because i had a few moments of slipping off the brake and nearly going straight over a roundabout a few years ago.
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Lauren
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Re: Do You Heel and Toe

Post by Lauren »

aaronjb wrote:
jonb- wrote:Tell that to the car i nearly re-ended many moons ago when playing in the MG. If you get it above a "bit" too much and you're not fully committed on the brakes you can have quite a lurch.


Especially when you're getting used to it as (if you're anything like me) you tend to lift off the brakes a little when kicking the accellerator down..

I'll get the hang of it eventually :lol: Right now about one in ten are done right I reckon :whistle:

Having said that, I don't believe I ever drive committed (read: fast) enough on the road to need the stability into corners that heel & toe can give you.. on the track yep, I could see it helping, but for me on the road it's more about sounding cool changing down :lol: (And I could cheat to do that - get an SMT, and let the electronics do it for me ;))



SMT is possibly the worse semi-auto ever invented in living history though.
aaronjb
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Re: Do You Heel and Toe

Post by aaronjb »

Lauren wrote:SMT is possibly the worse semi-auto ever invented in living history though.


What makes you say that? (not really a semi-auto in my mind either, as that implies a controllable auto-box to me, but rather a hydraulically actuated manual.. but anyway, semantics :))
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Lauren
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Re: Do You Heel and Toe

Post by Lauren »

aaronjb wrote:
Lauren wrote:SMT is possibly the worse semi-auto ever invented in living history though.


What makes you say that? (not really a semi-auto in my mind either, as that implies a controllable auto-box to me, but rather a hydraulically actuated manual.. but anyway, semantics :))


well i've driven one. ;)

Thought it was awful, way too slow on the upchanges. Down changes were okay.
aaronjb
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Re: Do You Heel and Toe

Post by aaronjb »

Lauren wrote:well i've driven one. ;)

Thought it was awful, way too slow on the upchanges. Down changes were okay.


I guessed you'd have driven Martins ;)

I've not driven one myself (despite nearly deciding to buy one) - I'd heard that about upchanges, although they were meant to have made that a little more swift in the post '03 cars.

Given it's all electronic, it really ought to be possible to reverse engineer a new ECU to make it into a fantastic 'box, considering aside from the electronics it's just a hydraulically actuated standard 'box & clutch.

Shame the market is far too small for anyone to consider doing that, really.

One of these days I'll get 'round to borrowing an SMT owners keys & see what they're like - I suspect I could live with one on the road & track fairly happily, not being the worlds greatest driver ;)

BTW - did you see the SMT vs. manual on-track (Best Motoring) video? Surprising result..
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Re: Do You Heel and Toe

Post by jonb- »

I've driven as DSG gearbox and found it heavenly, though i've no idea what you're talking about with SMT
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Re: Do You Heel and Toe

Post by aaronjb »

jonb- wrote:I've driven as DSG gearbox and found it heavenly, though i've no idea what you're talking about with SMT


SMT = Sequential Manual Transmission, Toyota's clutchless manual 'box on the Roadster (no clutch, but you have to manually shift via buttons on the wheel or push back/forward on a stick)
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Re: Do You Heel and Toe

Post by jonb- »

So it's a manual, single clutch box as opposed to an auto box with control or a DSG?

I can't imagine that's good in any form tbh.
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Re: Do You Heel and Toe

Post by Leon. »

I'm slightly confused re. the blip. A 'blip' to me means a sudden pressing of the accelerator for a milli-second, is this right? Only at the mo my blip is fairly long lol!

I assume it has to be a quick 'blip' so you can change quickly, seeing as you need to blip between pressing the clutch and releasing it again.....?
jonb-
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Re: Do You Heel and Toe

Post by jonb- »

Leeroy wrote:I'm slightly confused re. the blip. A 'blip' to me means a sudden pressing of the accelerator for a milli-second, is this right? Only at the mo my blip is fairly long lol!

I assume it has to be a quick 'blip' so you can change quickly, seeing as you need to blip between pressing the clutch and releasing it again.....?


It's a very quick tap, afterall to raise the rpm by 2000 when the car is in neutral doesn't take much at all.

The more you do it the more second nature it becomes and when you find yourself in a car without the pedal lay out to be able to press both it's rather annoying!
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Lauren
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Re: Do You Heel and Toe

Post by Lauren »

Leeroy wrote:I'm slightly confused re. the blip. A 'blip' to me means a sudden pressing of the accelerator for a milli-second, is this right? Only at the mo my blip is fairly long lol!

I assume it has to be a quick 'blip' so you can change quickly, seeing as you need to blip between pressing the clutch and releasing it again.....?


It has to be a very sharp, quick blip if you are doing it properly rather than a long blip which is more for show really.
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Lauren
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Re: Do You Heel and Toe

Post by Lauren »

jonb- wrote:So it's a manual, single clutch box as opposed to an auto box with control or a DSG?

I can't imagine that's good in any form tbh.


Yes and of course you are right its not any good.
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Re: Do You Heel and Toe

Post by Dave Goodhand »

Leeroy wrote:I'm slightly confused re. the blip. A 'blip' to me means a sudden pressing of the accelerator for a milli-second, is this right? Only at the mo my blip is fairly long lol!

I assume it has to be a quick 'blip' so you can change quickly, seeing as you need to blip between pressing the clutch and releasing it again.....?


Its matching the revs.. so you need to blip as much as is needed to raise the rpm to the required. Its more of a "blip" if you have a lightened flywheel although some cars take longer, so you'll find you need to press the pedal down further / for longer etc. When you get it wrong you'll feel it as the whole car will jerk. Do it correctly and you wont feel the car shift any weight.
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Lauren
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Re: Do You Heel and Toe

Post by Lauren »

Dave Goodhand wrote:
Leeroy wrote:I'm slightly confused re. the blip. A 'blip' to me means a sudden pressing of the accelerator for a milli-second, is this right? Only at the mo my blip is fairly long lol!

I assume it has to be a quick 'blip' so you can change quickly, seeing as you need to blip between pressing the clutch and releasing it again.....?


Its matching the revs.. so you need to blip as much as is needed to raise the rpm to the required. Its more of a "blip" if you have a lightened flywheel although some cars take longer, so you'll find you need to press the pedal down further / for longer etc. When you get it wrong you'll feel it as the whole car will jerk. Do it correctly and you wont feel the car shift any weight.


You don't have to match the revs exactly it doesn't matter in a saloon car.. I'm guessing you are talking about a single seater with a straight cut box where it is much more critical. Don't forget Dave we are not talking about single seaters here.

A bit more of a blip than is required will do no harm at all.
Dave Goodhand

Re: Do You Heel and Toe

Post by Dave Goodhand »

Lauren wrote:
Dave Goodhand wrote:
Leeroy wrote:I'm slightly confused re. the blip. A 'blip' to me means a sudden pressing of the accelerator for a milli-second, is this right? Only at the mo my blip is fairly long lol!

I assume it has to be a quick 'blip' so you can change quickly, seeing as you need to blip between pressing the clutch and releasing it again.....?


Its matching the revs.. so you need to blip as much as is needed to raise the rpm to the required. Its more of a "blip" if you have a lightened flywheel although some cars take longer, so you'll find you need to press the pedal down further / for longer etc. When you get it wrong you'll feel it as the whole car will jerk. Do it correctly and you wont feel the car shift any weight.


You don't have to match the revs exactly it doesn't matter in a saloon car.. I'm guessing you are talking about a single seater with a straight cut box where it is much more critical. Don't forget Dave we are not talking about single seaters here.

A bit more of a blip than is required will do no harm at all.


I'm not talking about single seaters... I'm talking about any car with a manual transmission (bar semi autos) its dependant on the car.. the whole idea of heel and toe'ing is to match the revs exactly to the rear wheel speed.. otherwise you might as well just come onto the brakes and change down normally!?

If you match the revs exactly then you get a much smoother change (even clutchless - this way you know you're doing it right) so iyswim then you'd understand. Different rules for different cars depending on the weights of flywheels, revability etc. If you're just "blipping" the throttle then you're having no real effect.

Ie clutch goes in, revs drop to 1000rpm (as its a down change) "blip" throttle - revs rise to 3000rpm, engage gear, revs shoot up to 5000rpm. Now if you blip longer to get the revs up to around 5k rpm you'll find the transition of engaging the gear effortless on the car. Thats what heel and toe (or sole/sole) is for. Otherwise there's no point in using it at all as you're still getting the car highly unbalanced when you engage the gear.

Hence drifters pop the clutch to initiate a drift - as it unblances the car once the weight throws itself forward.
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Lauren
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Re: Do You Heel and Toe

Post by Lauren »

Dave,

I know how to heel and toe.

What i'm saying is that it is not crucial to blip the throttle to teh exact revs.. a little bit higher makes no difference really.

Obviously with practice you get it spot on after a while. Its better to get the revs slightly higher than too low.
sw20jiro

Re: Do You Heel and Toe

Post by sw20jiro »

dude, heel and toe is fun! u have to learn it if u dono how. its just another thing to master as a driver. all part of spirited driving!
ENSMR2
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Re: Do You Heel and Toe

Post by ENSMR2 »

Really getting the hang of this now! coming along nicely. Really feel the car remain balanced and smooth.

Not sure how it sounds to other people as you blip the throttle. Had a few odd looks like "dont he know how to drive"
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Re: Do You Heel and Toe

Post by aaronjb »

ENSMR2 wrote:Had a few odd looks like "dont he know how to drive"


You're using the clutch, right? *has visions of much revving & grinding*.. :clown: :clown:

Personally I think it sounds good, but yeah, to your average joe it probably sounds like you don't know how to drive..

I remember getting a nasty look from some lil' old lady crossing the road when I forgot to shift my foot and ended up coming to a complete stop and *then* revving it.. :oops: O:)
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