Gatso Protest

[GT4 Nick 966]

Hi Folks.

Glad to see this has generated some interest.

Please email me if you want to keep informed - I'm building up quite a list.

Need to decide exactly what we're protesting about for the publicity. Basically we, the motorist, are sick of being persecuted. See Jeremy Clarkson's article in this months top gear. Trouble is, there's a lot of apathey too - people just accept this is the way it is - NO NEED.

So if you have ideas exactly what we should protest against let me know

[email protected]



Cheers!

Euphonium_John.

Hi John,

Pleased You've come over here,

Nick (280)

[blueorb]

Motorway speed limits should def' be looked at. Perhaps speed limits should be raised at quiet times of the day, reduced in poor driving conditions. That would make a lot of sense.

Also, I am frustrated by the lack of road speed inormation on many roads. Often there will be speed camera signs, but not speed limit signs.

I feel that the speed riminder boards (The ones which tell you your speed, then tell you to slow down) are a good reminder. I usually slow down if prompted.

It is a difficult issue to resolve. Speed does kill! However so does lack of concentration, dangerous driving, unroadworthy cars etc...etc....
Being a biker, I have heard it said that there has never been a better time than now to break the speed limits. This is because of the lack of traffic police pressence.

Research sugests that despite the explosion in the number of cameras, deaths on the roads have not reduced. What does this tell us?

More research is needed. Safety needs to be the focus not revenue.

[ENSMR2]

Here in Herts Constabulary the Gatsos and mobie camera vans are manned/managed by civilian staff.

Civilians legally cannot make an informed impression of speed. Only a police officer can do that.

Informed Impression ?

They point the gun, speed comes up faster than the limit, and they press the button to take a picture of the car.

They aren't stopping cars. They don't think "well that car looks like its going a bit fast lets take a picture."

[euphonium_john]

One point....

Speed DOESN'T kill.


In-appropriate use of speed kills.


(ie chavs!)

OK, so I may drive a little faster than some - (allegedly) but I've never had an accident or caused one!

I wonder if jezza'll be up for this??

[prezjamin]

Thought I should add.

All fixed camera sites are located in accordance with DfT criteria at specific collision hot-spots, where 4 or more people have been killed or seriously injured in the previous three years, and where data shows that traffic regularly exceeds the speed limit. Mobile camera sites require there to have been 2 or more people killed or seriously injured over a three year period.

In addition, 15% of camera activity can be carried out at sites that do not fit the above criteria, where there is evidence of excess speed and other factors such as requests from local residents. This is the case for many roads, as there have been letters from residents asking for speed enforcement as they have difficulty in accessing the main road due to the excessive speed of vehicles within the mph limit.

Safety Cameras in Hertfordshire are used solely to reduce casualties, and not to raise revenue, as stated in certain sections of the media. Any revenue from cameras can only be used to finance camera operations, and any excess is retained by the treasury, not by the police or its partners, HCC and the Magistrates Court Service.

Hmmmmm let me think, This section of road in the middle of no where looks like it could make us a load of money from unsuspecting motorists, how many casualties have there been here *cough* about 2 i recon, Lets stick a camera here. Because of course the government are trustworthy arent they, basically if they want a camera there, there WILL be enough caualties, if you know what i mean

[euphonium_john]

I agree with the above.

Looked on the Police website for my neck of the woods.

Apparently there have been 9 casualties at the end of my road last year - hence the need for a camera.

B*ll*cks!

There was one little accident!

Just making things up!

[Leon.]

The ONLY way to rid the country of Gatso cameras is for EVERYONE not to speed and thus not get flashed, and thus not fund the damn things.

Nige, how right you are! That's the best line of the whole thread!

The cams only work because of the fixed penalty system. If everyone who was NIP'd took it to court the whole system would collapse

Similarly, you know that if no-one payed their fixed penalty, the system would also fail!! The police force wouldn't be able to cope, period!

But we still keep paying like good little Brits do!

[euphonium_john]

Err not me.....


Mind you - didn't get the option to have a FP!


OOPS!

[Leon.]

Its like many things in 'the law', they rely on the vast majority to comply with these things for their success.

Hope I didn't just throw a spanner in the works!!!

Of course, the majority of laws are absolutely necessary, and some could well do with improvement, but there are some that need to be seriously looked at............

[Shmed]

With all the spped cameras about, it beggars belief that I saw a particular police car sat on a roundabout in a 40mph zone all day. Didn't pull one person over, just sat there. If I did that I'd get sacked, but it's all legit. What a waste of feckin time!! Hate to use the cliche, but go and find some criminals!! How many cars/houses would've been broken into, or people mugged could've been going on?!

Also, while I'm ranting, anyone see the police bloke who got fined £300 and 3 months probation for death by dangerous driving?? Anyone who knows anyone that has been done for death by dangerous driving will know that this is very leniant. I know they were chasing a crim, but all the same. Back in the day, when I was off the rails I got done for drink driving, and I'm an idiot I know but it was a long time ago and I learnt my lesson, but I got banned for 2 years and fined nearly £800, I never hit anything (or anyone), was sticking to the speed limit, but was driving a slightly Chavvy car late at night. Still don't condone myt actions, but is consistency too much to ask??

As for speed cameras, definitely have their place. Don't agree about them distracting the driver because they look at the speedo, surely any competant driver can manage to check their speed without being a danger, do they have the same problem checking their mirrors?? As a safety deterrant they are worth while, and speeding around schools and towns is idiocy, motorways need reviewing, but making radar detectors illegal again beggars belief!!

Grrrrrrrrr

[euphonium_john]

Yup - they just need to be used for the right reasons!

[GT4 Nick 966]

This is an interesting site on the subject.

http://www.carpages.co.uk/news/mobile-s ... =919724760

£20,000,000 is a lot of money to put back into speed dectection equipment for prosecution. No wonder there are camera's everywhere.

Frightening

[blueorb]

I think we also need to remind ourselves of the recent media coverage of innacurate speed detection equipment. Did you reed about the guy who was convicted for doing 135 in his scooby, yet it turned out that it still had its Jap' resticter on, therefore it couldn't have been doing 135. The case was thrown out of court. Another chap was done for 125mph (I think) in a standard Fiat punto. This guy paid to take his car on a race track to prove that it couldn't do even 100mph! Another error.
Vascar is also open to massive amounts of error, depending on police reaction time. There is some interesting info at:

http://www.ukspeedtraps.co.uk/plates.htm

Take a look.

Maybe we need to challenge the police a little more when we are caught. Check their competance/training. Check certificates of calibration etc....
Just be more aware of our rights etc...

[Raf]

To the IMOC Bobbies.... just purely out of curiosity; do you have targets to meet on fixed penalty hand outs?

With the amount of money involved (millions) it's no doubt that the chancellor will be using forecasts of revenue gained through FP's in his budgets (if not relying on them). If he has a budget to meet then he also has a target to achieve. I always believed that this must pass onto the constabularies. So if the Police forces have targets to meet then there must be some sort of incentive for achieving those targets. Therefore the Police can gain indirectly from the fixed penalty system. Thats what I feel anyway and may not be the truth.

As for this protest, as I said before, at least its a start but as some peeps have said; I dont think it will work... I'm not sure what will really as this Goverment is very stubborn and always sticks to its guns!

I would personally be gunning for a review on speed limits; reduce speed limits on streets to 20mph (Most of our streets have speed bumps so generally you cannot do 20 anyway). On motorways I think the speed limits should be increased to say 90mph and the bottom limit should be 60; Slow drivers on the motorway are in my opinion more of a danger! (with varying speed limits given road condition you are always going to have a difference in opinion unless the law is clear cut!) also maybe the Police can target lane hoggers as well as speeders... they are of as much danger as anyone else! especially the ones that do 50mph in the middle lane!

[Baker]

thats my pet hate raf, people that SIT in the outside/middle lane while 10's of people have to undertake them. dangerous.
there is a few motorways that are having signs put up, unsure where though.

[Hurstie1981]

OK a couple of things, being an IMOC bobby,

You dont have to pay your FPN, but if you dont do it within 28 days, the fine goes up in value by 50%. You then have a further 14 days to pay the new fine. If you fail to pay this fine, it goes to civil court, and it will be classed as non-payment of fine, and you will receive a CCJ. Simple as that.

I cant talk about other constabularies, but speaking from my own experience, i have never been told to issue a certain number of FPN's, or have i had targets to reach. Road traffic police might do, but as i am not one, and have never been one, i do not know. I on the other hand, would not have time to go round hunting for speeding motroists. Ok, if one is being a little cheeky infront of me, id check out the car, and might have a word if i feel its necessary. I use my own judgement and discretion for anything i deal with.

Most mobile vans now are run by non-police civilian staff, and it will shortly be run by the highways agency. The vans that park on top of motorway bridges, and hind behind bushes etc are very rarely police officers these days.

At the end of the day, road traffic offences are exactly that. They are not criminal ones, you dont get a criminaly record...unless for a serious offence.

If you want GATSO's banned, just think what you would all think if every burglar in the uK suddenly did a protest to make burglar alarms illegal? At the end of the day, they stop burglars doing their thing. The same as GATSO's stop speeding motorists doing their thing.

An interesting topic though.

[sadako]

Here in Herts Constabulary the Gatsos and mobie camera vans are manned/managed by civilian staff.

Civilians legally cannot make an informed impression of speed. Only a police officer can do that.

Informed Impression ?

They point the gun, speed comes up faster than the limit, and they press the button to take a picture of the car.

They aren't stopping cars. They don't think "well that car looks like its going a bit fast lets take a picture."

Informed impression is basically weaselese for "using a device to measure speed"

It is not as simple as point and shoot. You have to calibrate the device whenever you set it up and you have to use it without moving it, on a fixed point on the vehicle, ensuring there are no obstructions. The devices run on IR laser and they will invariably go for the corner cube reflective numberplate you are required by law to fit. Anyone who has mucked around with a laser pointer at night will know that numberplates reflect the pointers incredibly well. This is why detectors have a hard time picking it up and your only real way of defeating one is with a diffuser.

The devices often use a laser gun called a Prolaser III, this device has been banned in other countries, most famously in Canada where it showed a courtroom that the court wall was travelling at 5 mph. Naturally we still use it.

All in all somewhere in the law it states only plod can use them. The guidelines for use state that the BiB must first asses whether or not the suspect is likely to be speeding before using the device, These guidelines also state that an error factor of 10% +2 mph should be allowed to cover errors in the car's speedo, although the SCPs have taken great delight in telling people they are only guidelines and not law. This appears in the form of Sussex SCP winning a court case to convict a motorist of doing 31 in a 30.

BTW i'm no legal eagle or BiB but I just pick stuff up like this for some reason

[ENSMR2]

I see thought you meant something else.

I must say and as Hurstie has now proven civilian staff are being used. If it was against the law they wouldn't. There must be more to it then what you know.

One thing I realised when I joined up is that coppers are human. Not the evil people you guys are making us out to be. A few are proper jobs worths however.
We are limited by being understaffed and covering sick leaves, holidays etc. Then we also have our specific orders we must do as well as respond to the usual nuisance youthes calls argueing neighbours domestics RTC's not to mention the amount of civil problems we are called out to which we can do nothing about really etc etc.

Crime is changing and the force is getting more and more restricted.

A lot of people don't consider these things. Believe me. We feel that things are not right and we don't have the resources.

If you are to aim your criticsm at anyone it should be at the executives and not the actual officers, our hands are tied.

[Shmed]

I don't mean anything personal against the police, they are doing their job and a valuable one at that, though I might not have had the same view 6 years ago when getting pulled over up to 10 times a week but the whole stop and search thing has kinda eased off in my area, much more discretion being shown.
Just wish the gov would admit that it's about revenue, not safety and stop treating us all like idiots!!

[GT4 Nick 966]

I Think we have strayed a little here , myself guilty of it also .

Dont forget what this thread is about, a drive from the north of england to to south of england in protest of gatso's.

We can tell tails about the police on another thread if you like.

Anyway ENSMR2, are you going to come on the drive with us