Developing for 360 - how to start?

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RichardK
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Developing for 360 - how to start?

Post by RichardK »

Sensible question - one of my kids loves the 360, especially Halo, and has apparently talked to the developers playing it. I'm wondering what I'd need to find for him to be able to learn how to write his own games.

At the back of my mind, I'm sure Microsoft made an SDK for Visual Studio for the 360, I might even have downloaded it. Something for writing games for the little arcade store bit, rather than full on games.

Is that the right place to start? Visual Studio, a PC and this "hobbyist" SDK? Are there still inexpensive "student" editions of Visual Studio that will support it - Visual Studio Express, or similar?

I'm assuming any modern PC will be up to the task and will probably grab an iMac and put Windows XP on it for dual-booting.
SamUK
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Re: Developing for 360 - how to start?

Post by SamUK »

Microsoft XNA. it was designed for exacltly what you want and to make it easier for devs to get the most out of the 360 hardware.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_XNA
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RichardK
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Re: Developing for 360 - how to start?

Post by RichardK »

That's what I was remembering! Needs Visual C# Express, which is why I never quite got into it - I have books on C#, planned on learning, and have been too busy.

Does it need anything special hardware wise? I'm thinking I might get him a refurbished XPS M2010, which is the PC I use and might have some sort of "cool" factor for being in Iron Man, but they're not exactly "value for money" in terms of actual specification. I'll get him the subscription and setup an XP system ready.

Then I just need to find some books on XNA which an 11 year old will get on with...
SamUK
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Re: Developing for 360 - how to start?

Post by SamUK »

not sure what the system requirements are but google should know.

i read a little feature that OXM did a while back where they planned to make a game and it turned into a monthly article about how far they HADNT gotten with it.


so i think its pretty tricky stuff. be good fun if he can get the hang of it though.
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James
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Re: Developing for 360 - how to start?

Post by James »

head on over to www.xbox-scene.com for all the info u cld wish for :thumleft:
un1eash
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Re: Developing for 360 - how to start?

Post by un1eash »

Dell small business site are doing a good deal on the XPS M1730, can be had for under £1100 delivered, spec....

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SamUK
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Re: Developing for 360 - how to start?

Post by SamUK »

something to give your son inspiration.


http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/18000/Dre ... Announced/
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TomSalter
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Re: Developing for 360 - how to start?

Post by TomSalter »

I'm a registered Xbox360 programmer (Some of you might even have my games ;) ) and it's not something you can really jump straight into, although being keen certainly helps!

The first thing you need to know is how to program! Games these days are written in C++, so learning that would be a start. It's got a steep learning curve, but stick with it and it'll soon start to make sense. It'll be frustrating, and you can't learn it in a night, a week, or even a month, but don't let that put him off. You really have to start at the absolute bottom too, it takes teams of 20+ experienced programmers years to make a game these days, so it'd take one inexperienced person a considerable amount of time to make even a simple game...

Games are very maths-heavy too, so good maths skills are an absolute must.

Some people here have suggested XNA and C#, but you might as well just learn DirectX 9, as the Xbox360 uses a superset of the DX9 features. If you can code with DirectX 9, you can code with an Xbox360. No professional developers use XNA / C#, although I admit, it's the easiest way to see your creations actually running on the Xbox360 hardware, and if that's all you're after then feel free :)

Any questions on this and I'll be happy to answer :)
SamUK
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Re: Developing for 360 - how to start?

Post by SamUK »

i take it you cant say which games?
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JohnnyC
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Re: Developing for 360 - how to start?

Post by JohnnyC »

Start doing stuff on the PC, not the 360. It'll not be as good as seeing your stuff on the TV, controlling it with the 360 controller - but I think jumping straight to the 360 is trying to run before you can walk (even if they're not a million miles apart).
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RichardK
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Re: Developing for 360 - how to start?

Post by RichardK »

It's not for me. It's for a kid - but I'm sure you understand the difference between "You can learn how to program a PC" and "You can learn how to develop for your Xbox".

Different types of mentality, I think.

Either way, sounds too complex. I know when I was 11 I was entirely happy in dBase and Pascal, but, meh. I figured kicking off with C# and avoiding getting caught up in the mire of "pre existing techniques" would have been better at his age.
JohnnyC
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Re: Developing for 360 - how to start?

Post by JohnnyC »

Well, I wouldn't spend a fortune on some kit that the kid'll end up giving up on after a couple of days, but that's just me :D

If there's anything to make life easier on the xbox then it might be worth getting. I don't know what's available for it except C++, and I wouldn't recommend that to a kid.

As Tom says, it requires massive effort to produce games, so start with something very very simple. Trouble is, I don't think the young ones realise that they can't knock up a Quake 4 clone in a few hours.

No disrespect. But writing games isn't like playing them (as I'm sure you know).
Programming is do-able when you're 11, I managed it, but luckily we didn't have Gears of War on our Spectrums, so our aims weren't too high :)
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TomSalter
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Re: Developing for 360 - how to start?

Post by TomSalter »

SamUK wrote:i take it you cant say which games?


I'm credited on Virtua Tennis 3, Sega Superstars Tennis, Super Rub'a'Dub, Go! Sudoku, New International Track and Field amongst others... The only ones I can't talk about are the ones I'm making now ;)

I would honestly say that for an 11 year old (I'm assuming he's 11 from your last post) then full-on games programming would be above him, but there's certainly no harm in pushing him in the right direction.

Download Visual C++ 2008 Express ( http://www.microsoft.com/express/vc/ ) and get them to play with simple text based games, and if he holds his interest with that then you've not spent anything. Just hope he doesn't write a program that wipes your PC ;)
Azz
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Re: Developing for 360 - how to start?

Post by Azz »

RichardK, if you have an ok ish PC buy Unreal Tournament 2K3, it comes with full UnrealED 3.0 which is the unreal engine Level editor

You can make a full game with it and is a good place to learn how things like BSP and building enviroments work. The UnrealED exe is located in the System folder once the game is installed

There is also a small amount of C++ in there to get him started and its VERY addictive

:thumleft:
RichardK
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Re: Developing for 360 - how to start?

Post by RichardK »

JohnnyC wrote:Well, I wouldn't spend a fortune on some kit that the kid'll end up giving up on after a couple of days, but that's just me :D

Programming is do-able when you're 11, I managed it, but luckily we didn't have Gears of War on our Spectrums, so our aims weren't too high :)


I don't care what I spend on the kids if it's got potential. I'm sure my dad shared your attitude - he stuck me on piano; not my strongest skill and with rigidly enforced lessons, I got nowhere.

Turns out I can play violin tolerably, but you can't teach an old dog new tricks - I had asked about violin when I was about 10, due to my cousin's interest and skill.

FWIW, Tom expressed an interest in cello, so I got one for him, and he stopped after two years. But the core skills he learned will still be there.

I didn't try writing games, I wrote database applications and contact/time managers - my favourite language is COBOL, so... well, I'm an old fart. Which explains why I always got "Systems Analyst" on the aptitude tests.

the cost of XNA is $99, plus a PC and Visual C#/Studio Express (free, no?). It's not so bad, though there are a few quids worth of books there too.

And no, I'm not expecting him to get as far as Hello World. I want to present the information and let him figure out what he wants to do with it and simply not feel constrained by a lack of tools.

Tom, sounds like you're thinking in much the same way - and yeah, I really don't think he'll write "a game", though I would hope that a simple breakout style thing would be feasible. Remember AMOS/STOS? Didn't the Sony NetYaroze have a similar environment? I must admit I was hoping that XNA would - with concessions to modern techniques - be a bit like STOS-with-balls rather than C# and then some more stuff. Visual Basic, but with gaming libraries and a bit of hand-holding so you can get a player, a pattern and a target going, for example.

(I hated trying to use Visual Basic tutorials - I wanted to write the application, but the tutorials were all about "drawing" the application, making buttons, and then saying what the buttons do. This approach seems backwards to me, or perhaps "divisive" - I'd already have planned the buttons in my flowchart, but they'd be the last bit to go in).

Azz, nice idea - I know a lot of stuff uses that engine. Are there good books/accessible documentation for the editor? He's got a laptop already, which is certainly "of the era" that my Mac version of UT is, but I think it's a bit low end.
Azz
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Re: Developing for 360 - how to start?

Post by Azz »

RichardK wrote:Azz, nice idea - I know a lot of stuff uses that engine. Are there good books/accessible documentation for the editor? He's got a laptop already, which is certainly "of the era" that my Mac version of UT is, but I think it's a bit low end.


Yeah, but they are online toutorials, but once you get the basics you can create absolutly anything

If you play Half-Life 2 you will come acroos the Northen Petrol Depo and i replicated it for an Unreal 2004 Map,

Have a look...
http://www.imoc.co.uk/forums/viewtopic. ... 4&start=20

Bioshock and Gears1/2 use the Unreal engine and if you can get the editor you can make games for these as well :twisted:

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