[Mk2] [Generic] fuelling

[MR!! wren]

hey all, hope someone can help, have been supercharging my 3sge for the past forever, at least it seems it's taken that long, am getting close to putting the engine back in and need to know if the standard injectors, fpr and fuel pump will be able to cope with 7psi of boost? and if not what parts would i have to upgrade?

cheers

[Benmoore999]

I don't know how similar they are but upgrading to turbo injectors, rail and frp, fuel pump maybe a start if you can asses if it may fit ? Maybe the whole inlet manifold may fit ? Interesting concept though.. What supercharger are you using out of curiosity ?

[MR!! wren]

eaton m45, a bit small really should've gone for the m62 but i've made all thebracketry up now, for 7 psi at full revs it'll be at it's absolute max rpm

gonna keep the standard manifold, as the turbo manifold will mean changing a whole load of other stuff, i think goldy kept the standard injectors etc boosting up to 5psi, but that was a 3sfe, and less boost of course

if i do have to upgrade then it'll be to the turbo parts, no need for anything fancy with just 7psi

[Benmoore999]

Very nice, thats a cool idea though. I guess you are running aftermarket ecu ? If so could you run a 5th injector ? It maybe the easiesy way of providing extra fuel if you cannot find any larger injectors to fit your stock manifold.

Just an idea....

Good luck.

[MR!! wren]

yeah gonna be using the emanage ultimate, so a 5th injector is an option, but it's not a huge amount of boost and would be easier to not have to. was hoping it'd just be a case of fitting tubby injectors and and fpr maybe? dunno if the tubby IJ's will fit the NA fuel rail and head though?

[bishop]

have you thought of getting an older revision intake manifold with cold start injector? i have one lying about and thought it'd be a good 5th injector

[MR!! wren]

is it the same shape as the rev2 manifold? as it needs to be the same for all the pipework etc to match up, as i've relocated the throttle body to the input side of the supercharger, so don't want to be making up all new flanges and stuff, another reason i want to keep the manifold is that it's been polished, and i'm NEVER going through that again! lol i don't mind paying out for tubby injectors and fuel rail etc, i just wanna know if i have to or not? or if i'll be able to up the injector duty enough to cope

[marcnoonan]

Hi Matt,

Hope it all works out for you, had the same idea myself as my engines 100% polished and I'm not just swapping it out for a Tubby after the 100's of hours that have gone into it so I know where you're coming from.

Put a thread up on the subject....but got poo poo'd on cost vs gain

http://www.imoc.co.uk/forums/viewtopic. ... highlight=

What sort of power gains are you hoping for?

Cheers

Marc

[MR!! wren]

hah, yeah cost against power gains doesn't make sense, i was inspired by goldies 3sfe conversion, and originally planned on doing it as cheaply as possible, but then got a bit carried away lol. i'm just doing it for the fun of it, don't really have a power figure in mind, just MORE, mainly i want more torque because all the NA's i've driven have been pretty gutless up to 4k, but tbh i'll be ecstatic if i can get it going!. my engine blew up and i'd already spent out on a replacement, so thought i'd go ahead and supercharge it while i had an engine sat there in my garage calling to be messed about with. could've probably got a tubby rear end for under a grand. estimate i've probably spent well over a grand already. and to make me sound even more stupid, my car's an auto! at least it'll be unique! i'll get some pics up of what i've done so far if i can work out how to get them from my phone to pc?

supercharger - £100
emanage ultimate - £350
wideband lambda - £200
intercooler - £100
ask style engine cover (supercharger wont fit under the lid with the 3sge unlike the 3sfe) - £100
replacement NA engine -£400
all other gubbins (bit's of stainless, dumpe valve etc) £300 ish

now i'm at the point where i've got the supercharger mounted and lined up, the replacement engine i bought i stripped down and fitted tubby pistons, and lapped all the valves back in and shimmed the head and cleaned it all up, just need to answer this fuelling question and i can get it all in and start wiring up the emanage, i plan to use the wideband and a seperate map sensor from a tubby and program the emanage to autotune the engine roughly just so i can get it running, then get it on the rolling road to be done properly. never done a project like this before so i'll be suprised if i ever manage to get the thing running! might soon be seeing adverts for lots of NA parts

[marcnoonan]

Hi Matt,

Thanks for the details and good luck with it, I'll keep my eyes peeled for your updates. Seeing as your eventually going to have to do the rolling road, have you though about doing the cams while you're doing the rest of the internals, although it'd be nice to see just how much increase a supercharger gives you on its own. Spacing was an issue from where I could see between the 3sfe and 3sge, good fix, I've got one of the chop-shop engine covers which does give an extra 4" height to the engine space if I ever go down the supercharger route, although I'd have to get mine chromed as I'm not polishing any bloody thing else on the car.

Again, good luck with it

Marc

[MR!! wren]

yeah, couldn't see any other way round it really, i've mounted it in the same position as goldie, as it's running via the aircon pulley, and i've reversed the tensioner to push down on the belt, i'll take some pics when i get a chance. gave paul at woodsport a pm, and he reckons the fuelling will be good up to 5psi, but unsure and says the only real way to know is with an afr guage, which fortunately i already have set up. and he suggested maybe just get a rising rate fpr. is the standard tubby fpr rising rate? i'm guessing yes?

e2a: does the NA just keep a set fuel pressure at all times then?

cheers

[bishop]

the cold start injector manifold is essentially the same as the standard N/A one, the 5th injector can be seen here:



as you can see, it would mean your have to get this one polished...

oh and turbo's have a fuel pump relay which switches between high flow and normal flow (as simple mod for turbo owners is to fix the flow rate at high) so i don't think the fuel pressure changes in the turbo model. The N/A models are set at a standard pressure.

[MR!! wren]

sorry, i didn't mean pressure from the fuel pump, i meant is the fpr in the NA different to the tubby? i.e. the fpr in the tubby ups the fuel pressure 1psi to every psi of boost or something? as the NA is never supposed to see boost i'm guessing it/s maxed out at ambient air pressure?

also the vacuum feed from the manifold to the fpr on the NA goes via a little switch, does anyone know what this is for? i was thinking it switches to manifold pressure at open throttle and then switches over for idle control or something?? don't think it's gonna matter but just would like to know how/why it operates

cheers

[steve b]

sorry, i didn't mean pressure from the fuel pump, i meant is the fpr in the NA different to the tubby? i.e. the fpr in the tubby ups the fuel pressure 1psi to every psi of boost or something

cheers

Is that right? I'm suprised to hear that, I thought that was a proper "olden days" fueling solution for boost. Rising Rate Fuel Pressure Regulator, people fit them normally as a bodge when they turbo n/a cars and can't afford bigger injectors and a fuel computer.

[MR!! wren]

that's not the solution to controlling the fuelling, i've got an emanage ultimate to control the injector duty, but obviously i don't want to be running them at 100% and possibly not have enough left at the higher revs, so a rising rate fpr will hopefully be enough to give that extra pressure needed top end, just wasn't sure if there was even any difference between the NA fpr and the tubby fpr. looks like it's all been set back for a while anyway (again ) as i'm not happy with the amount tension adjustment on the drive belt so have to fabricate a second tensioner.

EDIT: or you mean you're suprised to hear the tubby's fpr is rising rate?

[oBladeo]

btw i love the emanage and i've shown allot with this unit

TBH i don't know how much money you are willing to spend so 2 things

1. buy a rev 3 fuel rail with injects off ebay (rev3 cos the injector are bigger)

2. buy a top feed system with custom fuel rail (i can supply the rail through a friend no i'm not a dealer) and also the injectors
you will also need a fuel pres reg