Carbon airboxes - who wants one?

[James_Ward]

Hi all,

I've been mulling over a more free-flowing airbox design for the MK1 for some time, and my current job involves working with a supplier of carbon fibre components. I am going to see what it will take to get some parts made and maybe sell a few if they give a flow improvement....basically I need some feedback from you guys to see if it's worth persuing.

My concept is a replacement carbon airbox using the same mount positions as the MK1a airbox, picking up air via a trumpet from one of the vents in the engine cover with a free flowing filter e.g. K&N. The box itself would be two shells of carbon held together with metal clasps, with a length of steel reinforced rubber hose to connect to the throttle. I'm estimating a sales price of around £250+vat, is this something anyone would be interested in?

Comments are most welcome.....

[greglebon]

Sounds good: I'm always interested when someone mentions CF..!

However, there is a bit of a problem with the theory.......

It would be much better to feed the airbox from, say, below the battery tray, as the engine cover vents are where the air naturally EXITS from the engine bay.

This is due to the low-pressure area behind the back window, which creates airflow through the engine compartment.

If your airbox provides a low-loss feed direct to the throttle (ie: sort of like 20v ITB technology, but for the standard single-throttle NA MK1) then you're on a winner....

After all...Mr.T's miles of plastic pipe going all around the back of the boot, etc MUST be able to be imporved upon without the need to cut holes in body panels........?

I had a Pipercross Viper from an Audi TT in my old NA: this was fed from under the battery tray, so it got nice cold air.

A similar CF setup but using the OEM box real-estate, and looking factory-fitted would be VERY desirable, I'm sure...

[classic mk1]

Hi, my personal feeling is that most people have gone down the after market filter route. so what your offering is a modern take on an old design, at approx £250 + VAT i feel your market would be very limited.
If you were to design a large volume smooth flow cold air feed using grp i think you would be on to winner . practicle and cheap just what everyone with an after market filter needs.
cheers colin

[James_Ward]

Price is a problem then, what sort of price would make it attractive? Bear in mind most induction kits at around £100 are just a filter, adapter plate and a hose, my product would be those items plus a cold feed airbox.

As for the cold air feed the plan would be to draw air from a cold location, obviously I'd need to do some testing to see which location gave the best reduction in air intake temps, but again most aftermarket kits draw air in from the engine bay anyway.

As for behind the rear windscreen being a low pressure area, I don't know about that. It'll certainly be turbulent. My thoughts have included an external pipe that sits on top of the engine cover and ducts cold air round from the side of the flying buttresses to one of the vents. Perhaps that could be an optional extra..... but I just wanted to gauge the interest at the moment to see whether it was worth dropping some bucks on a prototype.

Much appreciated on the feedback guys.....

[greglebon]

Its a difficult one....!

A certain percentage would buy the CF one if the price was right PURELY because its CF and it looks cool..!

The more shrewd will ask what it brings to the party for the bucks, and if anything already available will do as good a job for less....?

I do a lot of one-off stuff, R+D etc, and invariably you end up doing the work, finding that it really DOES do the job, and is good....but by the time you come to making a production run, you find that you'll have to sell it for twice what most people would be prepared to pay, just to break even..!!

So you end up with a nice unique prototype...or you end up making the run and selling them at a loss.....!

Nice for the punters, but not a lot of use for you, unless you're very charitable....!

Personally.....(and this is just MY opinion, with the benefit of a certain amount of hindsight!)..

Look on Ebay and see what the price of a CAI kit is: maybe a Viper (doesn't matter from what car: they can ALL be made to fit a 4AGE), maybe one of the other carbon ones available....?

Thats the price you'll be competing with....and bear in mind that the shape of the canisters is fairly optimised for good airflow.....

......Then just think "F**k it, I'm gonna make one anyway..!!"

(its what always happens with me....!!!!)

[classic mk1]

I agree there's a percentage that will buy because its carbon fibre and these people are normally associated with MK2s. Trying to get a cold feed for your airbox from the grill in the engine bay lid wont work due to the design of the car. ie low pressure area over engine bay draws hot air up and out through the grills. This is why we all use Ram air from low down and foward of the engine. Hence my suggestion of producing a fibreglass cold air duct, functional, cheap and a market. Have you thought about having scoops made, these always attract alot of attention on ebay. Beats trying to reinvent the wheel.

[Negativvv]

Carbon Fibre airboxes already exist tho!



BMC CDA, they retail for under £200 ish and it probably isnt that hard to adapt one for a mk1

[crazylegs]

i think you would be better off doing panels ,bonnet and boot , or interior dress up parts. the cost of the air box takes it out of most peoples price range. i an not saying they wont be good but its a lot of pennies.

[millentubby]

Surely blowing £200 on an airfilter is a bit of a waste?

As Kev says - make bad parts better. The stock air filter isn't all that bad.

I'd like to see;

CF t-bars, engine lids, rear wings, bootlids and bonnets.

[System-G]

Surely blowing £200 on an airfilter is a bit of a waste?

Absolutely.

I personally don't see the advantages just because it's CF.

Although additional improvement can be made to how the induction system is fed, but again, the expense is not worth it.

[kevin..in]

I saw one recently made from 2 ice cream pots and would put money on it performing equally as well as a CF unit

the established parties in this field already do suitable units anyway (K & N appollo, pipercross viper? etc.) how many have you seen fitted to a MK1? kind of defines your possable market doesn't it!

if I were going into the CF production bussiness then some standard looking "dress up" parts would be where I would be looking, front spoiler, door mirrors, maybe T bar panels etc.

Lauren will be along shortly to tell you CF is a MK1 no no! and you should be looking at Kevlar anyway

[Knightkiller]

A Kevlar Mk1?

Then it really would have "bulletproof" reliability

[James_Ward]

Guys,

Thanks for your comments.

The reason I want to do a carbon airbox is - in the future I am looking to develop a range of aftermarket airboxes for multiple cars, which will be based around several standard conic filter sizes and use standard parts with adapters for different mountings/air pickups etc. The reason a mark 1 airbox is because I already have a development car start with the best one, and the one you know I say.... The reason carbon is although it's much more expensive than say an injection moulding to buy the parts, the tooling is much cheaper (that means my initial outlay is less). Also it's quite trendy at the moment.

If I were to be able to develop a carbon airbox with all the bits (filter, ducts etc.) and be able to market it for less than a £100 would this be more attractive? For this price, if the carbon part was actually only a skin of carbon, like a trim cover, and the main body of the box was actually a plastic injection moulding but invisible once installed (in other words, once installed all you see is the carbon bit), would this put anyone off?

I realise that perhaps the Mk1 area is probably the wrong place for an item such as this - my experience is that the typical MK1 person tends to be more pragmatic about "performance style" and also want more features for their cash. The way I see it, if I can get the discerning MK1 owner a product they will be happy to fork out for, the other cars should be a piece of cake

Although I welcome the comments about other trim parts my experience lies with air induction so I will continue onwards with them. Body panel parts would cost a fortune to tool, due to the size of them.

I really appreciate your comments guys, many thanks

[millentubby]

If you're wanting to make, market and sell a carbon airbox kit for cars your market will be 18-year old boy racers who don't have much money.

I work in Halfords and can tell you this first hand.

Nobody with a decent car comes in for tat like that. It's all 1.1 Fiesta drivers with pocketmoney to spend and suchlike.

If you wanted to make and sell carbon products you need to consider your target market - make sure they have money.

The mk1 'fraternity' is a good place to sell things because there aren't many young drivers (I'm a bit of an exception as I got my mk1 at the age of 19!) and the majority of mk1 enthusiasts are professional people with a decent disposable income that you can start to compete for.

My advice...ditch the airboxes and make some useful products!

[James_Ward]

My advice...ditch the airboxes and make some useful products!

Like what? How about carbon headlight covers?

[Knightkiller]

As mentioned before, the CF bonnet and engine cover would be a great addition, if you look in the group buy section theres a MK1 CF parts GB going on as the stuff is only available in America. A UK based alternative would be splendid.

Your market would be constantly increasing as Mk1's are really dieing out now, sucumbing to tin rot and the like. Just comparing the number of Mk1's on the market now to just a year ago, theres only about half the amount.... if that.

Whats this all mean? The cars are being bought more by enthusiasts now with, importantly, deeper pockets to fork out for stuff like CF parts. I take it CF is a viable lifetime replacement item.... does it deteriote at all? If not then what a great product to start producing for the Mk1

How about Carbon Fibre Rear Arches?? I'd like to see the feckers try to rust then!

[crazylegs]

sorry if this is a bit off track but what do you use for the coatings for the moulds or is it not done like fibre glass ? I am thinking of trying to sort out some FG for the rear corners. I cant seem to fine out what stops it sticking.

[millentubby]

My advice...ditch the airboxes and make some useful products!

Like what? How about carbon headlight covers?

I'd love some CF stuff to make the rear end lighter. Engine lid, Bootlid etc.

Headlight covers are relatively light.

Think Function over form.

The Golden Rule in marketing is make what you can sell, not sell what you can make

[kevin..in]

sorry if this is a bit off track but what do you use for the coatings for the moulds or is it not done like fibre glass ? I am thinking of trying to sort out some FG for the rear corners. I cant seem to fine out what stops it sticking.

mould release wax
http://www.fiberglasssupply.com/Product ... gents.html

or simply good old wax polish (car, furnature whatever its all much the same!)

[rootes]

Dubbin (walking boot stuff) works well too..