[Mk2] [Turbo] !!! REV2 Turbo Mappable ECU !!!

[luthor1]

No John, *NOTHING* like it.

[luthor1]

I've PM'd Jeremy, as I've not heard from him for months.

Greglebon is claiming to have received PM's from him, so Jeremy is staying low.

I suggest we (the people who have put their names down) agree a deadline beyond which we look elsewhere for an ECU solution. Certainly with that many (27+???) people surely an enormous group buy and decent discount could be negotiated on, say the LINK or something? Give 2Bar/Rogue/others the chance to bid for a huge stack of business in 1 go??

Jeremy - please come back and give us an update!!

[raptor95GTS]

nice idea but you can't force someone to come up with a mod. Looking back when Jeremy was asking for help testing this it was ages before someone agreed. Problem is a lot of people talk like they want stuff but then comes the times to do something about it or heck put some money out, they all disappear into the twilight.

I'm not surprised Jeremy stopped looking into it which is a real shame but life happens

[PFrazier]

I offered my car for testing purposes and I am still willing to do so.
I am also willing to invest some funds towards this project.
Hopefully jeremy has just taken a break and will continue with the work.

[luthor1]

I offered my car, which he used - I then provided the Rev2 wiring loom he needed,posted it to him at my own expense!! I think there's more to it, because I've provided everything he's asked for

It's ok though, we've done what we can, and have 27+ people on here rooting and helping so now we have the potential for an awesome group buy!!

[weegaz22]

I offered my car, which he used - I then provided the Rev2 wiring loom he needed,posted it to him at my own expense!! I think there's more to it, because I've provided everything he's asked for

It's ok though, we've done what we can, and have 27+ people on here rooting and helping so now we have the potential for an awesome group buy!!

theres a difference between interest in a product and people actually forking out for it

and as said you cant force someone to come up with the goods, he knows there is interest in the product, so let him further develop it, id hate to see it rushed and then peoples engines start going pop because of an oversite

[spowy]

You could argue all day about the forcing someone to come up with the goods , as far as I was aware Jeremy knew of the interest in this ecu and can even remember a post back in the summer from a trader with a rolling road asking for a car that would help further develope this ecu.

Getting back to the point of forcing someone to make this ecu, a simple email from jeremy to give us a quick update would be quite helpful to all of us, I to wouldn't want him rushing this and to get it right first time but how long are you prepared to wait if noone knows what is going on.

You could still be waiting this time next year I would love one of these ecu's and am 100% behind it but not if I don't know what is going on and what stage the project and assembly are at.

Just my 2 pence worth but agree with Luthor there should be a deadline on this now and then organise a group buy on a top aftermarket ecu so we can all get on with mods on our engines etc.

[johndgt4]

Come on then Luthor.....elaborate! From what I see he wants to take the mapping capability away from TCCS but keep the safety features IAC, etc and allow datalogging which is what you can do with most modern piggyback units e.g emanage ultimate

I cannot see any other difference unless I'm missing something.

John

[johndgt4]

Actually ill elaborate aswell.........I think this would be a truly great product but you can get all this functionality with modern piggybacks so a lot will come down to price etc. Also I cannot see this being completed overnight for those who are rushing as a hell of a lot of R&D, programming, mapping and road testing is going to be needed to make sure it runs correctly as I'm sure Jeremy doesn't want 27 people knocking on his door with blown up engines and consumer rights claims. Also you are still working with 90's technology and bus speeds etc whereas the piggybacks are running faster lookup rates etc. This is why they and EMS's tend to be big bucks. You are paying for that speed and R&D.

Really hope he manages it though!

Sorry Luthor, just don't like being shot down in flames!!

John

[luthor1]

If I hear the word "piggy back" again, I think I'm going to sick up some bile into my mouth.

A piggyback: This cheap-ass device takes the signals going to the ORIGINAL ECU and alters them, fooling the ECU into delivery different signals to the distributor and injectors basicaly pretending that different things are going on.

Jeremys' ECU DOES NOT DO THIS.

It takes the ORIGINAL signals, and does DIFFERENT THINGS BASED ON THEM!!!

Still feel shot down?

[johndgt4]

Hi Luthor,

Don't feel shot down at all. You seem very narrow minded about piggybacks and how crap they are . If they didn't work people wouldn't use them. I think you should take a look at the fact that EMS's have moved on a lot since the early 90's Denso (read: 15 years old!!) that you are talking about modifying here and AS I MENTIONED the fact that most modern piggybacks can alter and control signals a lot faster than the original Denso unit. A piggyback plus OEM unit can work very well for some people and this HAS BEEN PROVEN.

If you want to really shoot me down why don't you explain why this is actually better?????? Some facts and figures would also be nice to back up your claims that piggybacks are crap. How can you guarantee this mod isn't going to cause people to f$%k up their engines playing with the software.

Just playing devil's advocate here......SOOOO back to my original question what is actually vastly better than an OEM plus piggyback?????

If you just say they are crap again that is a waste of time whereas if you are actually knowledgable how's about giving folk some valuable insight.

John

[luthor1]

Ok, I was actually joking about shooting down etc hence the green smilie, so actually no offence intended...

A piggyback ECU on the Rev2 ECU can work, but the problems are many. One of the obvious ones, is that in order to reduce the fuel injected into the engine, the piggyback will alter the signal sent to the ECU 'pretending' to the ECU that actually less air is flowing into the engine, thus the ECU will add less fuel. Simple eh?

Yes.

Unfortunately, the ECU will also take a timing prompt from this, and as there is less air moving, and the engine is running at a lower VE it will also add timing. So what you are doing is pushing the ECU into the realms of detonation. This is the main problem with, say, the SAFC range of piggybacks. They pull fuel, sure, but they inadvertantly add timing aswell causing the potential to be susceptable to bad fuel etc, and just plain detonation!

Also, if you are 'fooling' the ECU then calculations the ECU makes based on barometric changes will be a % out on days *other* than identical to the day it was mapped, so thus could change the fueling and ignition again outside optimum... If the ECU calculates to add fuel based on a temperature change AND a VE value, then it will add a different amount. Basically, any calculation where the VE is used in it will be ruined by a piggyback, which changes what goes to the ECU from what *IS* to what *ISNT*.

Hope that makes things a little clearer

[ast]

In my opinion the main problem with piggypacks is the ignition timing. Sure you can adjust it in many advanced piggypacks but if you alter fuel with AFM signal then you have to compensate with ignition adjustment. You don't exactly know how much you have to compensate as this is depending on stock ECU maps and program.

The problem is how do you know if the stock ECU is retarding the timing and how many degrees? It takes some time for stock ECU to decay ignition advance back if it has detected knock and retarded so adjusting ignition timing with piggypack to optimal settings will be slow and hard.

[johndgt4]

Guys,

Just to clarify the point I was making....most modern piggybacks alter timing and fuelling so making them pretty much the same as the mod.

You seem to have missed the point with the S-AFC aswell....yes, they affect timing and in a bad BAD way if the user doesn't know what they are doing. A lot of folk fit them and then pull fuelling out which is very dangerous. They should only be fitted with an adjsutable fuel pressure regulator so they are setup to +ve increases all across the rpm points to make up for a slightly lower fuel pressure. You basically work from there, as you are in retarded timing territory, never dropping below 0 as this is where it causes ignition advances. Obviously this is different if you use an S-ITC aswell to adjust the timing and it goes without saying all of this SHOULD BE DONE on a rolling road with det cans etc. The OEM ECU will also compensate fro colder days etc.

Hope you see that all I am trying to do is to put the point across that piggyback units/ecus are not bad or dangerous it's how they are setup that is. This could also be the case with this mod if people start playing with the software without the relevant knowledge of what they are doing and could be as bad or worse than a badly setup signal intercept controller.

Some people may be considering piggybacks and you could be scaring them off by badmouthing them that's all.

Just sharing some of my years of knowledge and don't want to sound bigheaded

Peace fellow 3S-GTE brothers

John

[luthor1]

Scaring them off the S-AFC II product? Good!! It's not a very good unit, and not very useful to the 3SGTE Rev1+2 engine at all.

Fair enough you can lower the fuel pressure, but at what cost? Firstly, those 440cc injectors that used to be capable of supplying fuel at 85% duty for 300bhp are suddenly running lower pressure, therefore their flow at 85% duty is reduced.

Secondly, when you reduce fuel pressure, you reduce fuel atomisation which can lead to reduced speed of burn, lumpiness, poor throttle response and so on.

The S-AFC-II retails for around £220-£250 delivered, then it needs fitting and mapping, and it *doesn't* do: ignition, rev limit, boost limit, etc etc etc.

Jeremys' ECU coming out at £400 bolt in yo can control everything and not 'bodge' the fuel pressure, or the VE signal, or "lie" to the ECU to make it do what you want...

[mrfil13]

I always thought jeremys unit was going to be a fair bit cheaper than £400 when he got them produced in big batch's.

The main point of this was that you could plug it in, hook it up to a laptop, have a look whats going on, have a look at the knock readings etc, then when they want they could get the ecu remapped.

[PW@Woodsport]

for what its worth jeremys done the same thing over on twobrutal,developed a v6 programmable ecu,tested it,promised us cheap units and then disappeared off the planet....we even set up a funding thread were some 25 members were willing to donate money into a pot for jeremy to get his initial prototypes off the ground.

Now the only person that stood to gain financially was jeremy so we didnt need to do that,we even had members willing to donate that didnt even have v6's!

Come on jeremy,tell us all whats happened? you have had the full support from two clubs on this and we feel let down.

[luthor1]

Part of me is actually getting worried.

I know his place was flooded in the recents floods, so it might be worth making a phone call or something? I just feel like I don't want to 'push' it by calling. If he has chosen to not come on the boards, that's a clear enough declaration of intent isn't it?

Maybe we are better off banding together the peeps off this thread and your fella's of 2 brutal Paul and getting some uber group buy discount on another ECU? I floated this thought ^^ up there, and Rogue have PM'd me showing interest depeneding on our numbers (well, they'll sell 1 unit happily, but you know what I mean!) Should get something good.

I think we should give it until the end of the year and then look for numbers for the group buy. Firstly, people (well me!!) aren't going to be flush before Xmas is over, and it still give Jeremy a month and a half breather to see if he wants to come back and go with this.

[johndgt4]

Luthor,

FFS I am NOT saying the SAFC is comparable to this, YOU are the one who seems to think all piggybacks are like the SAFC. I WANT you to compare this to an E-manage ultimate or the suchlike and tell me why it's better (especially if it's going to be £400 (!!!!!), leave you with old electronics and an AFM etc etc).

I am truly getting bored of this debate now and you are clearly not very knowledgable about how people have tuned the 3s-gte in the past. I believe you have heard of people using the SAFC and damaging the engine and that's all it can do. Tuning is about measuring changes in a safe manner and progressively and most certainly on a rolling road with det cans etc.

Using the S-AFC is normally in conjunction with a higher boost pressure. This after reducing base to 30psi will still increase the fuel pressure as required to safe levels. It's called staged tuning!

This has been thoroughly tested and dyno proven to be well within the limits of the engine/ECU and will leave you with an approx AFR of 11.5 on a wideband O2 (hmm must be very poor atomisation to get such good and consistent AFR's!!!???). You are now forgetting your first argument in that the SAFC is modifying the standard ecu's parameters and such which, with an increased boost pressure, can be sending the injectors to 100% duty cycle. Ill leave you work out how the above will work.....

I take it YOU will be offering to pay for engine rebuilds if people play with the software on their own (much like messing with an SAFC if they don't know what they are doing!) and end up blowing up their engines???? Hmm I thought not.

This is how I now feel about this converstion and am going to stop.

[luthor1]

I think you need to wind you're neck in Mr Angry!

E-manage ultimate... again, it's another ECU fooling system, it takes the signals destined for the ECU, and modifies them to make the ECU do something *different* to what Toyota intended. When the VE goes over a certain level and the ECU would normally go OPEN on the injectors, it will change that signal, preventing the ECU knowing the true load on the engine. It's controlled-lying...

It's also £400. It needs botching into your existing loom and them mapping. It's certainly not plug-n-play.

The whole reason this ECU is so attractive to the people on this Forum, is because it gives us the opportunity to actually control the REACTION the ECU has to it's inputs, not just modify the inputs to OBTAIN the REACTION WE WANT!!

For example, quoting the e-manage ultimate.... "...can remove the speed limiter on a vehicle (may not work on all vehicles)". They actually write that! *may not work on all vehicles*. Oh great!

Well, the one in Jeremys' ECU *does* work! As does the knock light, and the MPG indicator, and the safe-mode map notification, the injector cycle, throttle position, RPM etc. And then, when you want less fuel to go in at WOT 6500rpm so it doesn't crank the injectors to 100% you TELL IT to, you don't PRETEND it's at less load forcing the reaction!

Hehehe, this is circular. I'm starting to repeat myself.

Piggybacks are not good. They may have had good results, but they are superceded now by better equipment. If this project ever completes, this project will be in the column marked "better equipment".