Tradgic accident...any help would be amazing

[Thailand84]

This is a sensitive subject so i would really appreciate it if people kept theirs views of the law for death by dangerous driving etc aside for this topic please.

I have a firend who had a terrible crash a year ago, which resulted in a tradgic death. He owned a 1993 MR2 turbo

A brief outline of what happened.

He was taking a blind left hand corner in a 40mph limit rural road ( reduced from a 60 not long before the crash) and had the shock of a oncoming car at speed. He took evassive action and steered to avoid it and let off the accelerator (not intentionally) causing the car to oversteer. He overcorrected the skid and it unfortuneatly hit the tree on the passenger s side, resulting in him losing his life.

Now police carried out skid tests etc and bellieve at the first skid mark the cars speed was 42mph. Understandably it would have lost some speed but at the exact point where the car lost control it can not be pinpointed. Though according to one eye witness it was after the junction on the corner meaning the speed would have been between 40-50mph.

His explaination for the loss of control was a sudden steering movement and letting off the accelerator. Now the police, i quote '' OUT OF CURIOSITY ' tried to see if this would happen. So they took a SIMILAR MR2 turbo out and found the onlyway they could lose the back was with harsh acceleration aggressive steering and a left off of the throttle. This was all done on an airfield...NOTE. though the police man did lose control trying to avoid a cone they put down to mark out a corner!!!!! My friend stated from the moment of the crash he was in 3rd gear...yet the police did the test in 2nd saying they didnt have enough power in 3rd and they couldnt get it to spin?!?

It must be noted that on the day of the crash it had been raining and was wet on the edge of the road and damp ...when they did the test it was a perfectly dry day on concrete surface.

All the expert evidenc pointed that the car was travelling slightly above 40 when the crash happened..but there was no evidence to say there was any dangerous driving , but from the police findings they are saying that letting off the accelorator in mid bend with a sudden steering action cannot cause a crash ? PLus there was no evidence to say he had been driving dangerously before the crash. there was one off duty police officer who he passed on a pedal bike who said his driving wasnt dangerous for the time he saw him.

I would really appreciate if i could find out any information on other peoples stories if they have ever ''LOST'' the back form letting off the throttle. Is speed an issue or can it happen at any given time? In the case no experts would come forward saying this would happen...but i wanted to know if it was a common thing and if so it would really help my friend....or if any one knows of a good route to go down to help prove that accidents cna happen ie a MR2 expert that would be willing to write an account of his/her experience.

Any help would be greatly recieved but please this is a sensitive subject so can no one comment on what should happen to him etc.....

Regards.

[skipp123]

sorry to hear that buddy

rip

[Charged]

I find the fact that the police tried to recreate this accident on an airfield where the road surface would be completly different, in the dry and in a different gear is absolutely farcical. It is very hard to make the back end of an Mr2 break away in the dry without being very violent with the steering. Also, one Mr2 turbo could/would behave very differently from another due to different tyres, suspension etc

In my opinion, letting off the accelerator on a bend, in damp conditions would certainly make the back end spin around. Mr2 turbos are known to be twitchy in the wet, hence why so many are written off over the winter months.

[Thailand84]

Thanks for your message.

[Thailand84]

Thats exactly what we argued. They tried to get the same size wheels 17..to replicate the car...yet the tyres and suspension we all different. PLus what makes this worse is that they did these tests 5 months before the trial and failed to write a report until the 1st day of the trial!!!! they didnt even tell the prosecution or my friends barrister. SO the trial had to be set back one day. So they could the tests again but write a report and have my friends expert witness there. All in 24hrs. Then they based the ENTIRE case on these findings. even though it wasnt a fair test.

[Quigonjay]

hi mate
so sorry for your loss and the loss of the gentlemans family
such a shame to be welcoming you to the club under these tragic circumstances
would you happen to know if your friend was one of our members?
may i ask his name? i do remember a post a while back about such an accident

when you say he was faced with an oncoming car, do you mean the other driver was on the wrong side or your friend dfifted wide on the bend?

from the way the police did the tests i have to say from personal experince of driving on both concrete and tarmac surfaces that their test was complete b0ll0cks
the concrete surfaces i have driven (including an airfield trackday/sprint race) where MUCH grippier than the tarmac surface
also, just after it has rained, a tarmac surface is still quite greasy as it it is drying up

there are other flaws in the test
the couldnt possibly have used a car with exactly the same make/size tyres, same level of wear on tyres, same pressure tyres, same suspension set up etc
possibly might not have even used the same revision car

all the above can cause different handling characteristics and how can they possibly induce the panic that your mate must have suffered with an oncoming car

therefore i have to 100% dissagree with the polices decision
hth
Jay

[Thailand84]

I think he was a member, but never really used his account. Everyone feels the same about the tests. Before they did the tests there was ABSOLUTELY no indication to dangerous driving but since they did these tests they really went for him..saying he was joyriding etc all he was doing was dropping a friend off. No other road users said anything about his driving being aggressive/dangerous...because they found that they could only lose the car with aggressive acceleration. Thye said at no point could he have lsot it from letting off the throttle and a reaction from the car coming the other way. As for the guy coming the other way he was a bit of a character said he didnt no the road and when asked about his speed jumped straight up and said he was driving at 40...no way over..if anything he said it was under.

And i dont think the jury picked up on the point of the police officer losing at 40 avoiding a cone!

So at the moment we are trying to find any HARD evidence or a EXPERT or any one on here willing to write that this can happen, that you can lose the back of a MR2 in the damp from let off oversteer with a steering input(EVASSIVE ACTION) , and finding it hard

cheers guys for your support for him.

[Quigonjay]

well i'm no expert but if it would help i am sure there are plenty of members who would be willing to write about their experinces, myself included

based on the information you have given us, i would certainly be making a complaint

[Thailand84]

quigonjay,

Really appreciate it. Its complete unjustice and if it comes down to it i ll get as many accounts of peoples situations to help fight this case. Will pass all this info on to him.

Thanks!

[mr2sexyok]

on christmas eve last year i found myself in a very simlar situation i overtook a car on a slight up hill bend at no more than 40 mph this was a dual carigeway in stockport. as i passed the car i over took another car came up behind so i pulled into the left lane. the car that came up behind me then pulled infront of me very close [ cut me up if you like ] . i there for let off the gas i was at this time not fully in the left lane, hit a very small bump in the road and the rear of my car started to slide to the right. bieng faced with hiting the metal railings with my son in the passanger seat i harshly steered to the right. big mistake this put me it to a full on clockwise spin. i then see a volvo estate coming towards me from the opposite way i was traveling i quicly steered to the left so my son wouldnt get the impact in his side , i managed to line the car 3/4 front and driver side wing straight into the side of the volvo. my mr2 ended up half the size and the volvo lost the door trim and all side air bags deploid. i can also confirm i was in 3rd gear in a mk2 sw20 revision 1 g-limited import t-bar [ just so you all know ] it was chipped -k&n induction and so on. the police came including trafic police . i must say they were very fair with me and said that they know i wasnt breaking the speed limit. it was a damp cold late morning on christmas eve 2006 [last year] i wasnt even in a turbo and wasnt speeding to loose the back end. my suspension was very hard and the car was low witch in this situation i belive doesnt help when you loose controll as there is almost no body lean just an inch or so of thick tyre wall on low profiles with no tyre wall flex. it was like driving a tractor. remember the mr2 was designed to be a well balanced car with the engine in the middle not the rear as the police usaly think. but and a big but to somebody like myself im not schumacer or sennar or even the late colin [ rip ] with not much expirience in car control expecialy a mid engine rear wheel drive 2 seater once you hit the limit of no return as the rear end lets go of the greasy black stuff what can i say your well and truly stuffed. tell the police to get intouch with stockport police [ j devision ] and let them read the police reports on my accident reg no. b6rjo. im sure they will change their mind. sory to hear about the loss of your dear friend. RIP. ps. i still had to go and do a driver improvement scheme. £150 plus 2 days off work it was either that or be done for undue care and attention as apparently it was still my fault. not driving in the condition of the road. better than getting 3 points though. hope all goes well for you.

[mr2sexyok]

sory i meant to say that i do agree sudden steering movement and off the throtle can cause this speacily on a bend.

[tonigmr2]

In my view the Police do not know what they are talking about.

A damp slightly greasy surface, and lifting off the throttle in a bend is EXACTLY the sort of circumstance that would cause a mid-engined RWD car to loose traction and spin.

I would say this - I have had around 20 MR2s since 1996 (no word of a lie) and EACH and EVERY one is DIFFERENT. Replicating this in a different car, in different conditions, with different tyres, suspension and even geometry is beyond a joke. Do they even know what they are doing?

I have spun in EXACTLY those conditions, albeit in a MK1 Supercharger, and a few years ago when I was a) less experienced but also b) it was an auto and changed gear mid-corner. But the principle is the same - it lost traction on a damp corner due to a shift of weight.

I suggest you find an experienced racing driver or similar to help. Perhaps Patrick at Rogue Motorsport if you want a professional to comment on this case.

So sorry for your loss, why are the Police going after this so aggressively do you know?

Rgds
Toni

[Martin F]

I'm sorry to hear about this and your loss, i haven't experienced this myself and i have had two turbo`s and three years experience with mr2 turbo`s.
i have lost control in the wet before but it was from to much acceleration. for example i may have been doing 40 in the wet in third and as soon as the turbo kicked in it just overpowered the car and shot me round, i do try and be extra careful though because of all the bad stories.

sorry i could not have been of more help, good luck in your quest for justice

[Quigonjay]

I have spun in EXACTLY those conditions,

forgot to mention, so have i

[2Crooky]

Thailand84 you have PM!!!!!

[2Crooky]

Mate i am friends with the parties involved in said incident and was involved in an accident 3 miles away 1 hour before!!!

It was hammering with rain!!! Trees had fallen, leaves were on the road...One such tree took out me and my brothers 200sx at 60mph!!! I know that bend like the back of my hand as i have driven it for 4 years and been driven round it for 20 years!!

The condition of said bend is utterly shocking!! The tarmac is extremely uneven and broken up, there is grass growing onto the tarmac on the far corners of it!!! In the hammering rain you can lose an MR2 on a dodgy surface doing 20mph let alone 40mph!!!

I have spun my MR2 on a similar bend just doing 18mph!! This case really makes me angry for the same reasons! Testing the same model of car but a completley different spec on an airfield in the dry??!!! Rediculous!!

PM me mate if you wanna know more, talk more about the situation

[Thailand84]

tonigmr2 do you know where i could find patrick at rogue motorsport? is there a link on here?
We have no idea why the police are dealing this case like they are. A few people have looked at the case and said there is NO evidence what so ever to prove dangerous driving ok a couple of witness's that say the car was going over 40..they said around 50..but in a police video of them driving a mr2 round the corner there is no difference, you couldnt tell which is which?!?. The whole case was based on the tests they did on the airfield. I think my friend was an easy target. young middle class boy with a sports car, as thats what the prosecutors went for...

But thanks for all your inputs showing it can happen!

[Quigonjay]

tonigmr2 do you know where i could find patrick at rogue motorsport? is there a link on here?

http://www.imoc.co.uk/forums/profile.ph ... rofile&u=4

http://www.revision6.com/static/contact.aspx

[Thailand84]

PERFECT THANK YOU!!!

Sorry in my comment before i meant to say the police filmed two verisons of the car going round the corner one at 40 and one at 50 and you couldnt tell the difference ( this wasnt on a closed road!! ) The police thought it was safe to drive round at 50. but they obviously didnt have the shock of a car coming the other way and didnt have to take evassive action etc..

Its amazing to read all your views and inputs..will pass them all on!

[2Crooky]

Mate can you tell the guy involved in the driving of the tubby to ring me on 07737946920 or sign on and PM me???!! He is a buddy of mine but i don't have his new number...