Earl Stepping down & Moderation

What's happening at the Club. You can post your suggestions and ideas here, along with reports of any problems using the site.

Moderators: IMOC Moderators, IMOC Committee Members

tonigmr2
IMOC Committee
Posts: 18054
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2004 2:30 pm
Location: Here

Re: Earl Stepping down & Moderation

Post by tonigmr2 »

Limeymk1 wrote:Quite agree and will suggest that we give it a go. :thumleft:

:lol: Although I do remember one incident where I politely asked a member to edit his comments about another. This request was bluntly refused, so his post was bluntly moderated. :whistle: :lol: I know now I overreacted to the refusal but we live and learn, and must try not to allow emotions to lead in such matters.


You'd have to be a robot or a saint tbh, LOL. One of the reasons I gave it up is it was just affecting my life way too much!!! People have to be a mod to realise how hard it is sometimes IMHO.

I do think the balance has been a little out of late, I accept probably due to some circumstances, but threads like this should help readdress it. :thumleft:
T
luthor1
Posts: 2452
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 7:03 pm
Location: Southampton

Re: Earl Stepping down & Moderation

Post by luthor1 »

With the greatest respect - that's a great example of one of (I think) the BIGGEST problems...

"you have to be a mod to know what it's like".

Hearing (reading) that sentence makes me want to take less ownership of my actions, and take less responsibility. It's PERFECTLY true, that you don't know how comfy a mans shoes are until you've walked 10 miles in them, and we all know this, but it really gets my back up and creates a divide when I read it. It's like a catch-all cop-out comment, because clearly we don't know what it's like, and most of us never will. It doesn't change the fact that the position is voluntary. It's the kind of sentence that I feel is subconciously written to gain sympathy, or to placate ones position due to hard work... of being the victim, the repressed one in the situation, "it's really hard, if only you knew" then... if only we knew we'd take ownership of our comments and Mod'ing would be easier??

I've read it a number of times, and each time I read it, all I want to say is "step down if you can't handle the work".

I don't think the office of 'moderator' requires respect, I think the person doing it requires respect. So when I read "mods have a hard time" (paraphrasing) that generalisation sounds like a cop out.

I hope I'm understood, and I appreciate that I may be on for some slating but I can't think how else to put it...

EDIT: plenty of people suffer things they HAVE to suffer, it's kinda hard to have sympathy with people who make a choice and then don't like it?
tonigmr2
IMOC Committee
Posts: 18054
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2004 2:30 pm
Location: Here

Re: Earl Stepping down & Moderation

Post by tonigmr2 »

I did step down. :wink:

It shouldn't get your goat, it's a statement of fact. I've seen many times people be amazed once they are on the mod/admin forum about the amount of work goes into running the place. With the greatest of respect, it is hard for you to understand it until you have seen it.

It doesn't mean you can't comment, it just means you are doing so without all the facts in front of you.
T
luthor1
Posts: 2452
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 7:03 pm
Location: Southampton

Re: Earl Stepping down & Moderation

Post by luthor1 »

Your expression of how hard it is, is an excuse for poor performance, or a request for sympathy. Or am I missing something vital?

If it's an excuse for poor performance, then step down, if it's a request for sympathy then that will create a divide between mods and members.

If I were a mod, and I wanted to quickly and easily end a disagreement between myself and a member, I'd use the phrase "you don't know how hard it really is" and quietly I'd say to myself at the end "...so shut up".

All Members hear the "...so shut up" all too well, and THIS is the part of it that creates the non-caring attitude towards mods.
tonigmr2
IMOC Committee
Posts: 18054
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2004 2:30 pm
Location: Here

Re: Earl Stepping down & Moderation

Post by tonigmr2 »

Did you even read what I said? That IS the reason I DID step down. Jeez. Because of the work. It's hard to get across how involving it is, but it is not an excuse. Actually scrub everything I said, I also stepped down not to get in pointless arguments with people who don't listen. #-o


T
luthor1
Posts: 2452
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 7:03 pm
Location: Southampton

Re: Earl Stepping down & Moderation

Post by luthor1 »

You stepped down, yes. Because you couldn't give mod'ing your full attention, fine. I did actually read your post, unfortunately you haven't read mine, or you'd realise that I cherry-picked a sentence out of it, and spoke generally about that sentence across the whole moderating/committee.

No-one is picking on YOU or not listening to YOU. I hear that sentence a lot, and why you DID or DIDNT step down is irrelevant to people who will NEVER be able to understand, and only causes frustration. You still chose to say "People have to be a mod to realise how hard it is sometimes IMHO" rather than limiting yourself to "I stepped down because I didn't have enough time to give mod'ing my full attention".

The way you put it gets peoples back up. You chose your sentence, not me!

You said the sentence that I am isolating as being a catalyst for bad feeling in the members towards the mods/committee. I am giving you guys information. The way you communicate with the members alienates them, I am pointed out how and why. That sentence is a great example of a sentence that alienates the members.
Tiamat
IMOC Moderator
Posts: 10179
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 2:02 pm
Location: Hailsham, East Sussex

Re: Earl Stepping down & Moderation

Post by Tiamat »

I think part of the problem is, until you do act as a moderator you cannot realise how involved it can be, but its hard to explain how involved it is to people who have not done it. Its a bit of a Catch .22 situation.

Thats not to say its an excuse, we know what we are taking on when we step up to the plate to be a Moderator or join the Committee

Workload is a factor, not normally to do with what it involved in the site, but outside of the site that limits the ability to spend time doing moderation. This is why people have called it quits because they can't devote the time.
I am going to live forever, or die trying!
tonigmr2
IMOC Committee
Posts: 18054
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2004 2:30 pm
Location: Here

Re: Earl Stepping down & Moderation

Post by tonigmr2 »

luthor1 wrote:

The way you put it gets peoples back up. You chose your sentence, not me!

You said the sentence that I am isolating as being a catalyst for bad feeling in the members towards the mods/committee. I am giving you guys information. The way you communicate with the members alienates them, I am pointed out how and why. That sentence is a great example of a sentence that alienates the members.


Your back, and tbh no I don't really understand your reasoning. I most certainly haven't implied you are any catalyst. Just that you don't have the full information to hand. If you find your lack of information alienating I really don't know how to solve that. I can see this is a circular argument not going anywhere, so I'll bow out now. :silent:
T
michael
Posts: 6940
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 10:34 pm
Location: Yorkshire

Re: Earl Stepping down & Moderation

Post by michael »

I was a mod here for a while (I was the sole mod on the Q&A too but nobody would have noticed because I was awesome! ;)) and because 50% of the other mods were work-shy it was a little hectic once in a while.

I'd have to be honest and say that the biggest PITA was other mods and committee not being able to make a decision though - too much faffing around waiting for a "majority vote" on trivial matters that normal mods weren't allowed to deal with unless they cleared it first. Too many people wanting the title but not having the time or dedication to perform the work needed. Nobody willing to stick their neck on the line and just say "no, this is happening" and then doing it.

The other issue is that there are no specific guidelines / rules for all the things that crop up so you get Mod 1 doing one thing and Mod 2 doing another only for both to be chastised by Committee 2 who then does something completely different.

I presume (hope?) things have changed in this respect since then but it's something the normal members don't see - perhaps you could open up the full admin area of the forum for a day and let everyone see what's involved O:) :twisted:

At present it's true what Toni is saying, you don't understand what's involved unless you've done the job, why would you? You can speculate based on a common sense approach to moderation but it's not like that here ;) The thing you probably don't appreciate is all the red-tape nonsense, treading on egg-shells, ensuring things can't be twisted by people going legal and so on - the theory behind it is easy enough but in practice it's crap, you get free premium membership though :-$
anna
Posts: 6105
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 10:33 am
Location: Warwickshire
Contact:

Re: Earl Stepping down & Moderation

Post by anna »

My 2p's

Luthor: When people tell you 'how hard it is' I think it's a combination of work, sympathy, but also that things are never black and white. Sometimes despite the best of efforts if can be incredibly hard to figure out what's right - sometimes it's not what you think, but you have to think what's best for the club. And as a rule regardless of what you do, someone out there will p1$$ and moan...

And that's another thing - telling people to GRF is not an option if you're a mod or committee - maybe it should be ;)

Michael - i think things have improved - general rule is black and white stuff - get on and do it, things that are boarderline - post about before reviewing. It means a more consistent moderation too.

Interesing idea on the moderation thing though - perhaps IMOC could trial a moderators flag system - a bit like report post - but only mods/committee can flag them - that post then gets turned a different colour or is marked as 'needs to be moderated', and a pm gets sent to the author - they then get a bit of time to correct it themselves, before being removed or normally modded or something... :-k
sounds like some coding is required for that though...
GO60 - Gaydon to Singapore Overland www.go60sharing.co.uk
Off soon! Follow my personal blog at http://go60.blogspot.com
luthor1
Posts: 2452
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 7:03 pm
Location: Southampton

Re: Earl Stepping down & Moderation

Post by luthor1 »

Ok - I never said you said I was a catalyst, and I can only ask that you get someone else to explain the grammar of my sentences if you think I think that!! I said the "sentence" you wrote is a catalyst that isolates members from MODS.

You've got yourself all wound up and are seeing words and sentences that AREN'T there. You are skimming over the post expecting it to be contemptuous of the effort you've put in. You may or may not feel some sort of failure complex for having to leave, or some inferiority feelings because Limey/Michael seem to find moderating a breeze.

That fact is your efforts are noted, and we are all grateful for the effort you put in. I am attempting to offer valuable feedback about how things MODS say that are truthful and factual actually come across to the members in a negative way, when you are only trying to impart INFORMATION to us, not NEGATIVE feelings.

It's disappointing that you are bowing out of a discussion that is not a flaming session, and it doesn't bode well for what I am trying to help achieve on this thread. Communication needs to improve, and the defensive way you read my posts (judging by your misinterpretation of them) adds weight to my theory that I think it's the mods that need to slightly modify their behaviour rather than the members.
luthor1
Posts: 2452
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 7:03 pm
Location: Southampton

Re: Earl Stepping down & Moderation

Post by luthor1 »

anna wrote:Interesing idea on the moderation thing though - perhaps IMOC could trial a moderators flag system - a bit like report post - but only mods/committee can flag them - that post then gets turned a different colour or is marked as 'needs to be moderated', and a pm gets sent to the author - they then get a bit of time to correct it themselves, before being removed or normally modded or something... :-k
sounds like some coding is required for that though...


Absolutely BRILLIANT idea... give the power back to the members. That's perfect. You're right though, probably time and money. That would represent the 5-star solution of what I was thinking.. come one people, get involved!
michael
Posts: 6940
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 10:34 pm
Location: Yorkshire

Re: Earl Stepping down & Moderation

Post by michael »

luthor1 wrote: You may or may not feel some sort of failure complex for having to leave, or some inferiority feelings because Limey/Michael seem to find moderating a breeze.


Let's not get all "twisty wordy" here sir, I'm not saying it's a breeze, I'm just saying that because of the way I am I am less likely to spend time worrying about the reaction or feelings of the people in need of moderation - Toni (and others) offer a very fair, thought out approach to the role which probably benefits the majority of members here and above all benefits the club itself.
Tiamat
IMOC Moderator
Posts: 10179
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 2:02 pm
Location: Hailsham, East Sussex

Re: Earl Stepping down & Moderation

Post by Tiamat »

luthor1 wrote:Ok - I never said you said I was a catalyst, and I can only ask that you get someone else to explain the grammar of my sentences if you think I think that!! I said the "sentence" you wrote is a catalyst that isolates members from MODS.

You've got yourself all wound up and are seeing words and sentences that AREN'T there. You are skimming over the post expecting it to be contemptuous of the effort you've put in. You may or may not feel some sort of failure complex for having to leave, or some inferiority feelings because Limey/Michael seem to find moderating a breeze.

That fact is your efforts are noted, and we are all grateful for the effort you put in. I am attempting to offer valuable feedback about how things MODS say that are truthful and factual actually come across to the members in a negative way, when you are only trying to impart INFORMATION to us, not NEGATIVE feelings.

It's disappointing that you are bowing out of a discussion that is not a flaming session, and it doesn't bode well for what I am trying to help achieve on this thread. Communication needs to improve, and the defensive way you read my posts (judging by your misinterpretation of them) adds weight to my theory that I think it's the mods that need to slightly modify their behaviour rather than the members.


I agree Luthor1 (what is your real name?) that MODS / COMS are often defensive, its often because people do not agree with what we have done and challenge it. Often the moderation that gets a friendly response is not see by everyone as its off the main board. I have edited a thread a couple of times int he last few days and got friendly "fair play" remarks back. But its not on the open forum because there is no need.

I think also when people get moderated, often they automatically get defensive. This means that the MODS / COMS get defensive because of the way people talk to them. Not saying the MODS / COMS are innocent, but its hard not to get defensive when you get ciritised for most of your decisions. Sometimes if members sit back and took a moment to think, they'd realise we not so bad.

However I also agree there has been some heavy handed moderating going on, some of it needed, some of it overboard. Not going into which as its not the place. Think some more softly soflty moderating is required.

Michael - I would love to open up the Moderator Forum / Admin Forum for a day, but there is confidential discussions in there and confidential information. Its not really practical to open it up without massive editing in advance to preserve not only the MODS / COMS privacy but also members on here.
I am going to live forever, or die trying!
anna
Posts: 6105
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 10:33 am
Location: Warwickshire
Contact:

Re: Earl Stepping down & Moderation

Post by anna »

luthor1 wrote:
anna wrote:Interesing idea on the moderation thing though - perhaps IMOC could trial a moderators flag system - a bit like report post - but only mods/committee can flag them - that post then gets turned a different colour or is marked as 'needs to be moderated', and a pm gets sent to the author - they then get a bit of time to correct it themselves, before being removed or normally modded or something... :-k
sounds like some coding is required for that though...


Absolutely BRILLIANT idea... give the power back to the members. That's perfect. You're right though, probably time and money. That would represent the 5-star solution of what I was thinking.. come one people, get involved!


One huge problem is distinguishing between 'need to mod now' and 'can get poster to mod' posts...

I would assume that libel might need to be 'mod now' due to legal issues - you probably couldn't sit down and wait.... although the ins and outs i don't know.

Also - do you think there needs to be incentive to the poster? along the lines of 3 mod flags without doing the moderation yourself results in a formal warning? (over and above any other formal warning) - cos some people may decide to purposefully not moderate their post cos they want to be a bit of a dick...? Or is that a step too far? :-k

Anyway - pie in the sky
GO60 - Gaydon to Singapore Overland www.go60sharing.co.uk
Off soon! Follow my personal blog at http://go60.blogspot.com
tonigmr2
IMOC Committee
Posts: 18054
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2004 2:30 pm
Location: Here

Re: Earl Stepping down & Moderation

Post by tonigmr2 »

michael wrote:
luthor1 wrote: You may or may not feel some sort of failure complex for having to leave, or some inferiority feelings because Limey/Michael seem to find moderating a breeze.


Let's not get all "twisty wordy" here sir, I'm not saying it's a breeze, I'm just saying that because of the way I am I am less likely to spend time worrying about the reaction or feelings of the people in need of moderation - Toni (and others) offer a very fair, thought out approach to the role which probably benefits the majority of members here and above all benefits the club itself.


Actually I find that quite funny, LOL. Failure complex/Inferiority. :lol:
Shame you had to resort to that when I won't agree with your limited POV Luthor1.
T
luthor1
Posts: 2452
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 7:03 pm
Location: Southampton

Re: Earl Stepping down & Moderation

Post by luthor1 »

Toni,

I don't need you to agree, loads of people disagree. All I'd like to maintain, is that you actually reply showing some proof that you've actually read my words rather than just responding to what you "think I probably said" which is what you are doing. Your response in your previous post demonstrates clearly to anyone who reads that you did NOT understand properly what I wrote.

I don't need you to agree with my POV at all, infact you are doing an extraordinarily fine job right now of proving my EXACT point. Defensive, lack of communication, mis-reading posts, ignoring what I actually write, accusatory stance (I "resort" to x/y/z???).

I think you'll find that you have became quickly aggressive throughtout this thread.

Could you clarify which of my posts asks you to "agree" with me? I am curious as to why you said "shame you resort to that when I won't agree with you". Could you quote where I asked you to agree with me please?

Andy <--- that's my name :thumleft:

EDIT: Michael, ok fair point, misread you a bit there, sorry!
tonigmr2
IMOC Committee
Posts: 18054
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2004 2:30 pm
Location: Here

Re: Earl Stepping down & Moderation

Post by tonigmr2 »

*Sigh*
At the end of the day who cares what I think? I'm nothing to do with the current set up, so how I choose to react reflects nothing.

Neither am I being argumentative or aggressive. I'm not the one calling anyone else a failure am I? :o

I only gave an explanation which you jumped on. It really is up to you how you take it. I think that much is clear. :-k I can't agree with you that referring to the workload is an excuse. Clearer now? I do hope so. If not, I refer you to the current mods/committee, I was only trying to help, and seem embroiled in a debate I don't really want to have. :?
T
lodgeman

Re: Earl Stepping down & Moderation

Post by lodgeman »

tonigmr2 wrote:*Sigh*
I was only trying to help, and seem embroiled in a debate I don't really want to have. :?
T


not sure if that worked the way you wanted it to though? i too was annoyed at the agressive moderation of the other thread, to remove nearly 5 pages was exceesive to say the least with some good points made on both sides. but it seems as the legal threat that you recieved has altered the thinking of the mods/coms . to some degree i understand that but it has always been heavily moderated and seems to be getting worse by the day! one person may have shaken your world but the rest of us are still here and want to enjoy the camaraderie that used to be here for all not just the few. i also find it odd that when it comes to threads like these it is always the liberal ones that stand up and say their piece :clap: and the hard line stay away and dont listen to anything written or said. it is this that divides the membership and causes friction. i am a moderator on another site and i know what goes on in the background , it is also one of the least moderated sites that i know and is a pleasure to be involved with! perhaps andy's comments (i think) about mods standing off a bit and seeing what will happen could be a good thing for both sides. give people a chance to stand back and relax a bit?
tonigmr2
IMOC Committee
Posts: 18054
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2004 2:30 pm
Location: Here

Re: Earl Stepping down & Moderation

Post by tonigmr2 »

lodgeman wrote:

not sure if that worked the way you wanted it to though? i too was annoyed at the agressive moderation of the other thread, to remove nearly 5 pages was exceesive to say the least with some good points made on both sides.


If you look at my first post on it I agree with you. :o
T
Post Reply

Return to “Club News and Announcements”