Problem: Ross piston fitment onto standard con rods??

[Bender Unit]

I was going to post the same thing as you Steve - eg. that They have stated it also affects earlier blocks. Would I be right in thinking that Fensports still crack the thick walled blocks as well?!?

[stevecordiner]

I dont think so James. To be honest I dont know why people dont just sleeve a block. Sleeves are pretty cheap from the US and all the honda guys over there do that with their blocks before going for 600-800rwhp lol!

[MR2Mania]

Just got off the phone with Fensport, and Simon's dead right (his and an ST185 block were found to be too thin). Also, a new "thick-walled" block is NOT guaranteed to be thick, although Fensport will check this and will replace if this is the case.

All this is quite worrying, really, and suggests that there might be more than 1 manufacturer of the block. Speaking to Fraser ages ago, the problem with the Rev3 blocks was caused by the block being cast on the "p!ss", hence why one side would be thicker than the other. Now that we know this issue is not isolated to Rev3 blocks, it pretty much means that EVERY block should be ultrasonically tested to ensure it's thick enough!

With regards to sleeves, yeah sure, it means you can know what the thickness is, but I've seen some real scare stories from engines with sleeves. I personally would want to know that I've got a solid block as is.

Incidentally, James, it seems that Fensport (in Adrian's car) have managed to reach the limits of what you can get out of the engine before some big problems occur. They've had rod holes elongate, bearings being flattened, etc, so they've now changed their approach and are kinda limiting the TORQUE they're getting, and trying to get more power out of the engine instead.

I guess when you're at this level, you've got to expect to be doing regular builds and it costing loads of money, or you could alternatively opt for a 503E engine which is designed for race use - but it's expensive, and it IS a race engine at the end of the day.

Good job that I've got moderate goals in mind!

[MR2Mania]

I was going to post the same thing as you Steve - eg. that They have stated it also affects earlier blocks. Would I be right in thinking that Fensports still crack the thick walled blocks as well?!?

They have cracked blocks regularly, but I don't think this has been down to a problem with the block. I think that it's more to do with severe, hard launches that are putting a massive strain on the block (remember, they've got grippy 4wd and are launching very hard with a metallic based clutch! You don't get more severe than that!).

[Bender Unit]

The sleeving option seems the way to go - there are a few good places who do sleeving now who will do the job for around 500 - which when you consider the cost of sourcing these late spec blocks is justifable. Had I found these companies sooner I would have had mine done.

[MR2Mania]

The sleeving option seems the way to go - there are a few good places who do sleeving now who will do the job for around 500 - which when you consider the cost of sourcing these late spec blocks is justifable. Had I found these companies sooner I would have had mine done.

The one thing that puts me off sleeving is I've seen some catastrophic failures, like one liner that slipped and the piston managed to get above it, the rings pushed out and as the piston tried to go down it couldn't, hence a nice little mess was left!

Also, another one that I saw had a problem with boost leaking into the coolant system - the same symptoms as having a thin-walled block crack on you.

I guess it's all down to the engine builder at the end of the day. I wouldn't chose anyone to do sleeving unless they were known to be good at it and have a good track record.

[michael]

Reminds me of the time when someone had their rev 3 block rebuilt and when it was stripped they found transit van sleeves had been used by the previous engine builder.

Allegedly.

[stevecordiner]

I'd of thought given all these hassles it'd be worth going with the late spec 5SFE block which has a thicker girdle and better silicon content than the 3S block. Then get a machine shop to enlarge the coolant passagers and tap the block for the oil feed to the turbo.

True, you would have to run an external oil cooler. But for serious serious power without having to track down a true motorsport level block, that might be the way to go.

[SIMON W]

Just got off the phone with Fensport, and Simon's dead right (his and an ST185 block were found to be too thin). Also, a new "thick-walled" block is NOT guaranteed to be thick, although Fensport will check this and will replace if this is the case.

All this is quite worrying, really, and suggests that there might be more than 1 manufacturer of the block. Speaking to Fraser ages ago, the problem with the Rev3 blocks was caused by the block being cast on the "p!ss", hence why one side would be thicker than the other. Now that we know this issue is not isolated to Rev3 blocks, it pretty much means that EVERY block should be ultrasonically tested to ensure it's thick enough!


With regards to sleeves, yeah sure, it means you can know what the thickness is, but I've seen some real scare stories from engines with sleeves. I personally would want to know that I've got a solid block as is.

Incidentally, James, it seems that Fensport (in Adrian's car) have managed to reach the limits of what you can get out of the engine before some big problems occur. They've had rod holes elongate, bearings being flattened, etc, so they've now changed their approach and are kinda limiting the TORQUE they're getting, and trying to get more power out of the engine instead.

I guess when you're at this level, you've got to expect to be doing regular builds and it costing loads of money, or you could alternatively opt for a 503E engine which is designed for race use - but it's expensive, and it IS a race engine at the end of the day.

Good job that I've got moderate goals in mind!

sorry to say this mate but i was right and you were wrong i think you will find that i am right about the rods as well so all you people out there that are claiming you have alot of bhp on a block that has not been checked you have been warned take it from somebody who found out the hard way (or get clark kent to check it while it is still in car)

[MR2Mania]

sorry to say this mate but i was right and you were wrong i think you will find that i am right about the rods as well so all you people out there that are claiming you have alot of bhp on a block that has not been checked you have been warned take it from somebody who found out the hard way (or get clark kent to check it while it is still in car)

I don't think you've proved anything with regards to the rods. I for one didn't have to modify my rods/pistons for the fit, neither have some others. Also, the same person posted his question on the IMOC list, and Chris Wilson also said that there was too much material in the underside of that Ross piston.

IMHO, it's the wrong piston if it needs machining.

[MR2Mania]

BTW, I don't have an issue with being wrong. I'm not that arrogant. When I'm wrong, and I know it, I'll admit it. Nothing wrong with that!

Also, a lesson learnt from a mistake is one that you tend not to forget!

[stevecordiner]

I'd agree with you Dino. You shouldnt have to get a set of forged pistons machined to fit the stock rods

Having said that I've not test fitted my weisco 8.3:1's to the stock rods yet They do look very blingy though with a coated skirt

[MR2Mania]

I'd agree with you Dino. You shouldnt have to get a set of forged pistons machined to fit the stock rods

Having said that I've not test fitted my weisco 8.3:1's to the stock rods yet They do look very blingy though with a coated skirt

Mate, do you have a pic of those pistons? I've never seen coated skirts, believe it or not.

When I got my piston crowns Keronite-coated, I asked about it, as the same company used to do coating of skirts, but apparently they stopped doing it as they didn't find any advantage in it.

Whoops, just thought, I've seen stock Evo8 pistons which had some kind of coating on the skirts, but it had rubbed off a bit. Not sure what coating it was, though.

[stevecordiner]

The skirts are teflon (IIRC) coated I believe. Basically means they're black on the skirt and then bling for the crown.

I'll try and get some snaps when they come back from the machine shop.

Apparantly they help the run in and reduce the noise that can be associated with forgies on cold start up.

[Nelo]

Also, the same person posted his question on the IMOC list, and Chris Wilson also said that there was too much material in the underside of that Ross piston.

IMHO, it's the wrong piston if it needs machining.

Yeah that's true. Going to look at sending the pistons back tbh as I don't want to be pulling this engine back apart in a months time. This is really trying my patience now, i've been more than fair with this car and it just keeps letting me down.

I fear that if I hit one more stupid problem Mr. Hammer may be brought out to be introduced to Mrs. SW20 for a blind date marathon.......

[CJ B]

Had a reply today from Co-ord Sport:-

Hello Chris.

Thank you for your enquiry.

The Ross 99814 pistons, are a direct replacement for the original part. The only modification that needs to be carried out, is to bush the little ends in the rods.

The original design is an interference fit, as where the replacements are a floating fit.

Hope this helps.

Regards

Phil

I asked them again if they could confirm the part in the picture as the correct one - still awaiting reply.

Lucky for you Nelo that you are an expert when it comes to bushes

[MR2Mania]

Had a reply today from Co-ord Sport:-

Hello Chris.

Thank you for your enquiry.

The Ross 99814 pistons, are a direct replacement for the original part. The only modification that needs to be carried out, is to bush the little ends in the rods.

The original design is an interference fit, as where the replacements are a floating fit.

Hope this helps.

Regards

Phil

I asked them again if they could confirm the part in the picture as the correct one - still awaiting reply.

Lucky for you Nelo that you are an expert when it comes to bushes

WoooW! That don't sound right, mate.

Here's what Chris Wilson had to say on the IMOC List:
Jeez, what boat anchors, could they have left more excess material in them if they'd tried....? Anyway, get your machinist to give plenty of clearance, at least 80 thou inch per side. the little ends are floating so they need a good clearance to be able to centre. They'll need balancing afterwards. Personally I'd send the things back, they look like diesel pistons! Get some Cosworth ones form JUN. I'll post up a picture of a proper piston in a similar bore size to show just how overweight those things are, if I get time. The machining needs fully radiusing too, not a job for the feint hearted, he'll probably need to make a fixture to hold them, too.


If they're an interference fit with the rods, how's there going to be any end float? And won't the interference fit cause major friction?

I know Co-ord Sport are a respected outfit in the trade, butt his is getting more puzzling by the minute.

[CJ B]

Just got another reply.

Hi Chris.

It's difficult to tell from the pictures.
Does the number 99814 appear on the underside of the pin boss?

Are you using the original rods, or are they an uprated rod?

The only other thing I can suggest, is to return the pistons, along with the original piston and a sample rod, so that we can inspect them here.
It seems strange that you have a problem, we have sold 13 sets of this part number over the last two years, and have not had any problems at all.

Look forward to hearing from you soon.

You can call me on 01384 216102 to discuss further.

Regards

Phil

[SIMON W]

sorry to say this mate but i was right and you were wrong i think you will find that i am right about the rods as well so all you people out there that are claiming you have alot of bhp on a block that has not been checked you have been warned take it from somebody who found out the hard way (or get clark kent to check it while it is still in car)

I don't think you've proved anything with regards to the rods. I for one didn't have to modify my rods/pistons for the fit, neither have some others. Also, the same person posted his question on the IMOC list, and Chris Wilson also said that there was too much material in the underside of that Ross piston.

IMHO, it's the wrong piston if it needs machining.

sorry about last coment bit below the belt but i did explain all this to you at the rolling road day last week hope it has sunk in this time

[minx]

now now boys all play nice