John Noble Motorsports Dyno Day - Results and Pictures

[Quigonjay]

are the figures quoted in the link actual power at the wheels or estimated power at the crank?
Jay

[MR2Mania]

are the figures quoted in the link actual power at the wheels or estimated power at the crank?
Jay

They're FW figures after measuring coast down losses. No figures at the wheels were given.

[Quigonjay]

just a suggestion but would it possible for someone to make a list of peoples profiles on here according to the way arranged on the link as some peoples names on the link are not the same as on here? (just so people can see what figures where produced and then view the persons spec on there profile)
Jay

[ryan_s3]

Hi guys,
Wondering if you think nobles is a good place to hold a RR day,i'm trying to organise one for some vag guys with the majority over 300bhp and 4wd.I noticed your comment dino about load? or something is this going to cause problems with powerful cars ie audi rs4/rs6's?

[RussMR2]

3 very nice pics of my car.
Cheers Michael

Russ

[Mikejc]

Don't shoot me down in flames chaps but their are some cars there that have made a fair deal less power than I would have thought given the specs

Namely AndyF and also yours Dino!

I thought Andy's cracked into the 400's a little while back whilst on Thors dyno? I base my surprise on your result Dino just against spec alone?

I'm honestly not trying to run people up the wrong way here I'm simply at a loss!?

That aside hat's off to Dave M who managed to show some 332 ft/Ib !

Mikejc

[DannyW]

i was a little dissapointed with my result of 228bhp as when i had a power run at thor (before i fitted the intercooler!) i made 250bhp at the same level of boost

[Mikejc]

Hi Danny.

Obviously they measure at the hubs at Thor. Which are you quoting? If you are infact quoting @ the fly from your visit to thor then what losses were you working by?

Mikejc

[DannyW]

I can't remember what losses Patrick @ rogue worked on to get the said 250bhp and i have lost my graphs so i dont know what i got at the hubs

It would be interesting to know what losses Nobles work on to give us the flywheel figures they quote.

[Andy F]

Don't shoot me down in flames chaps but their are some cars there that have made a fair deal less power than I would have thought given the specs

Namely AndyF and also yours Dino!

I thought Andy's cracked into the 400's a little while back whilst on Thors dyno? I base my surprise on your result Dino just against spec alone?

I'm honestly not trying to run people up the wrong way here I'm simply at a loss!?

That aside hat's off to Dave M who managed to show some 332 ft/Ib !

Mikejc

Hi Mike
The dyno was forcing the car to make too much boost too early because of the load on the rollers, so basicly it was over boosting (1.9bar) then the map sensor (3bar)caused a miss fire so the dyno thinks the run is over. Dino tried to take some boost out of the map but it kept doing it, so we had to call it a day, still 330@5000rpm not bad cos the red line is 8k now Oh Dave ms car is a GTO.

[Andy Jones]

Think i'll take mine back to Thor soon and have another power run so i can compare the results to the ones in November before the last lot of mods were done

[MR2Mania]

Don't shoot me down in flames chaps but their are some cars there that have made a fair deal less power than I would have thought given the specs

Namely AndyF and also yours Dino!

Mike, you know what? I was expecting someone to ask this, so here's the full explanation...

Excuse for AndyF
Because all the dyno runs took so long (longer than it would take the same car to accelerate in 4th gear on the road), the rollers were giving more resistance than you'd normally see on the road and hence Andy's car was boosting like CRAZY. His car was mapped about a month ago for 1.6bar - the reason Fraser didn't run more boost was because Andy's wastegate spring was too weak to give good boost control. But on this dyno with the higher resistance, Andy's car was going STRAIGHT past 1.9bar. Now since he has a 3bar MAP sensor (ie measures up to 2bar boost), the ECU creates a misfire when you get to the limit of the MAP sensor, so Andy's car would misfire when it hit this boost and this misfire would send the dyno into "losses mode" (the mode used for measuring coast down losses once the power run is complete). I tried reducing Andy's boost through the ECU, and I tried several things, but to no avail - it kept boosting to orbit. So we weren't able to record a proper run. But 330bhp @ 5000RPM only (ie just as the turbo's in full swing!) should demonstrate how frighteningly powerful Andy's car is. I'd say it's even quite a bit more powerful than it was when it recorded 409bhp at the hubs on Thors dyno. Shame we couldn't get a decent run done to show EXACTLY how powerful it was!

Excuse for me
No excuse, really! Those are the numbers I was expecting! Basically, my car has by no stretch of the imagination been fully mapped yet! Because of the issues I noticed a couple of days prior to the dyno day with my fuel pressure dropping off, I was concerned that a long run caused by the dyno's extra resistance would make my engine go too lean, so on the first run (317bhp) I opted to use the exact same map that Mark @ OD had put it in when we first got it running (which incidentally gave 315bhp and 325lb/ft on Owens Dyno - showing how close both Owen's and Noble's dynos are!!). This is SUCH a safe map, it overfuels like mad regardless of conditions, and has hardly any ignition advance on boost. Anyone that knows anything about mapping will know that for every extra degree of ignition advance that you can run, it should give another 10bhp. Now, comparing my map to Andy's, I've got 6 degrees less ignition advance than he does at the same boost level.

Now, since my first run went OK, I decided to add 2 degrees more advance. The result was 341bhp (ie 12bhp per extra degree). Even the guys at Noble commented on how well it responded to the extra advance, which showed that the engine could quite easily take more advance. Incidentally, my peak boost was 1.5bar, holding mostly 1.4bar.

Considering all of the above, I'm very confident that my engine could produce 400bhp no probs once fully mapped. Not bad for a hybrid CT26!

ALL the results I saw at Nobles were on par with what I expected for EVERY car. I'm sorry if people weren't happy - they generally aren't if they're quoted lower numbers than they've been elsewhere. The truth is, not all dynos are equal. Noble's dyno though is quite accurate, IMHO.

[MR2Mania]

I can't remember what losses Patrick @ rogue worked on to get the said 250bhp and i have lost my graphs so i dont know what i got at the hubs

It would be interesting to know what losses Nobles work on to give us the flywheel figures they quote.

Danny, Nobles don't pluck a percentage figure out of the sky and quote that for losses, as some dynos do. They actually make an attempt to measure the losses by doing a "coast-down" at the end of each power run. This is by no means a 100% accurate method (you can't possibly accurately measure losses accurately) but at least it's an attempt to measure them, unlike others who just quote a percentage which is totally unrealistic. If anything, the coast down losses are actually an OVER estimation of the losses, so you can pretty much be sure that the figures quoted by Nobles are a touch pessimistic.

When considering losses on a Dynopack dyno as used by Thor and Abbey Motorsport, the most I'd expect losses to be compared to the "at the hubs" measurement is about 20-25bhp, and that's me being generous.

To be honest, I'm tired of trying to point this out to people every time they quote supposed flywheel figures after going on to Thors dyno. But I guess at the end of the day, people just want to see big numbers...

[MR2Mania]

Hi guys,
Wondering if you think nobles is a good place to hold a RR day,i'm trying to organise one for some vag guys with the majority over 300bhp and 4wd.I noticed your comment dino about load? or something is this going to cause problems with powerful cars ie audi rs4/rs6's?

Ryan, IMHO, I think Nobles run a decent dyno day. The guys that operate the dyno know their stuff, they're nice and friendly, and they've got a good dyno with VERY good software. I know the software very well because this is what we had at Owens, and it allows you to pretty much log anything during a run (on mine, they logged and plotted fwhp, torque, boost and AFR).

The ONLY downside that I see is that the dyno run takes a bit too long, so temps can get a bit high, and depending on how good the car's boost control is, COULD overboost considerably. If you've got closed loop boost control, then it's not an issue, but other cars may overboost. Nobles are aware of the issue. But to be honest, I don't think many other dynos in the UK can offer better. The guy that used to run G-force's dyno (now opening his own dyno near Silverstone) claims that his dyno doesn't do this, but then he also weird things like run cars in 3rd gear, and also claims a load of b*ll*x which I know is totally wrong. At least I feel confident in getting my car checked at Nobles.

Hope this helps.

[MR2Mania]

Think i'll take mine back to Thor soon and have another power run so i can compare the results to the ones in November before the last lot of mods were done

Andy, maybe you should, mate. Not because Noble's dyno is inaccurate or anything, but if you want to confirm what effect a given set of mods have made, it's always best to compare on the same dyno.

If you now go to Thor and get more power again, it doesn't mean that they've got the more accurate figures - in fact, I'd say it's quite the opposite. I'm confident that Noble's dyno is as spot on as you can get! But at least if you get similar figures at Thor to what you had before, you know that there's no probs with your engine, etc.

[Mikejc]

20/25% loses on the Thor dyno!

I remember asking pete at Thor as to what he believed the loses to be, he told me he had worked them out to be 18%. I once posted my cars results of 305 @ the hubs and therfor a rough figure of 18% losses = 359.9bhp @ the fly.
I was shoot down for this and so from then on decided to work with a more conservative 12% to be on the safe side

Mikejc

[MR2Mania]

20/25% loses on the Thor dyno!

I remember asking pete at Thor as to what he believed the loses to be, he told me he had worked them out to be 18%. I once posted my cars results of 305 @ the hubs and therfor a rough figure of 18% losses = 359.9bhp @ the fly.
I was shoot down for this and so from then on decided to work with a more conservative 12% to be on the safe side

Mikejc

Whoops!! BIG mistake on my part. Of course I meant 20-25bhp! Now edited my previous post!

You can NOT consider losses as a percentage. It just don't work out that way. At Owens, losses for an MR2 producing peak power at about 6000-6500RPM translated to overall losses of somewhere between 40-48bhp. Since tyre losses account for AT LEAST 50% of the losses, that's why you won't see anywhere near the same losses on a Dynapack dyno.

[Andy Jones]

Think i'll take mine back to Thor soon and have another power run so i can compare the results to the ones in November before the last lot of mods were done

Andy, maybe you should, mate. Not because Noble's dyno is inaccurate or anything, but if you want to confirm what effect a given set of mods have made, it's always best to compare on the same dyno.

If you now go to Thor and get more power again, it doesn't mean that they've got the more accurate figures - in fact, I'd say it's quite the opposite. I'm confident that Noble's dyno is as spot on as you can get! But at least if you get similar figures at Thor to what you had before, you know that there's no probs with your engine, etc.

Hi Dino, It is mainly so i have a before and after comparison on the same dyno, If it does turn out the same (or less ) i can go back with the findings and ask why its been de-tuned

Are the Torque figures at Thor at the hub too and come with a % loss? because the print-out's say fly wheel power graph but we all know it is a hub figure for bhp? Trying to find out if my cars down on Torque too

Oooops, Just remembered i still haven't sent Neil my Dyno print-out.....Better do that now

[MR2Mania]

Are the Torque figures at Thor at the hub too and come with a % loss? because the printout's say fly wheel power graph but we all know it is a hub figure for bhp? Trying to find out if my cars down on Torque too

Andy, that's EXACTLY why you can't consider losses as percentages, because it would then over-inflate the torque figures.

I once took the FW and ATW figures for a car and then worked out what the loss was as a percentage. The percentage was greatest at peak power. At peak torque, the percentage was the LEAST!

Here's a graph I did for an Evo that demonstrates what I mean (peak torque on this car occured at about 5600RPM):

[jonno]

Sorry for the delay in putting the plots up - been pretty busy since i got back from the event.

I will scan everything I have in tonight and attempt to match them up with the owners names - I am bound to get one or two wrong so please correct me if I put the wrong name next to your plot

Cheers,

Neil.

PS. Thanks for the nice comments about the day, just glad everyone enjoyed themselves.