Overtaking on the left - illegal or not?

[jmachling]

I thought I'd start a new thread on this one.

IIRC it's not illegal to pass on the left as long as it isn't an obviously planned manoeuvre. I believe the police could still have you for dangerous driving, though.

In my experience, the cars that hog lanes and don't move out of the way are usually:

1) people on mobile phones/having an argument or otherwise distracted
2) drivers not familiar with the laws of this country
3) aggressive or ignorant drivers with poor road sense

Personally, I don't like undertaking any of them - not exactly the most predictable bunch, and if they haven't seen you behind them, I wouldn't like to assume they'll see me when I pass on a side they're not expecting! Nothing wrong with a flash of the lights - it isn't an aggressive signal, it should only be used (like the horn) to make other road users aware of your presence.

The other group are those who are driving at the speed limit (which may be slightly under because of inaccurate speedometers) and you break more laws and cause more dangerous situations by undertaking them.

I usually don't bother with the overtaking lane if traffic is moderate. Although it's more work sticking to the left and constantly overtaking lorries, you don't get stuck in these ridiculous 3rd lane queues and tend to make better progress.

[Quigonjay]

according to the law the only way you can legally overtake on the left is when both lanes are crawling and your lane is moving faster than the other

[Ian Geary]

on 3+ lane motorways, you're forgetting the group who just can't be bothered to keep going in and out of the left lane go get around lorries etc.

So there could be a lorry /van at least a mile away, but with a complete lack of driving nouse they seem worried about getting stuck behind it, and therefore decide to just sit in the middle lane, after all the work the car manufacturer went to in providing them with mirrors, indicators and steering wheel too!

I suppose that is classed as not understanding the laws.

As far as I know, undertaking on the left is illegal unless traffic is queueing to turn right (or I suppose queuing in heavy traffic).

It fustrates me like mad everyone bunching in the outside lane when the inside 2 lanes are virtually destered apart from a lorry and a dozy middle lane cruiser. But on the flip side, I hate also the typically chavved up Saxo that goes charging up the inside, then tries to cut in at the last second.

And just as typically, there's the BMW / Volvo drivers who will bunch up to stop them. Which is probably as dangerous as the undertaking in the first place.

Personally, I don't trust the average UK driver with the power to undertaken on both sides - collectively we're just not up to it.

I'd sooner flash people who are blatently hogging the middle lane - perhaps with my right indicator on. They usually get the message, and if not I'll just overtake them, cutting across in front of them to the left lane afterwards of course.

I suppose this in itself is dangerous, but IMO if no-one shows them, they'll never learn.

My 2p


Ian

[inky]

One (and maybe only) situation where it is legal to overtake on the left is on a two-lane one-way street.

The one-way system in Bedworth behind Tesco is a classic example, at the junction traffic can turn left or right. However people new to the area still get into the left lane and then indicate right, cutting the people in the right-hand lane off.

[jmachling]

Ian - aren't you just teaching by example how to pull off a dangerous manoeuvre, though?

I guess this problem is very complex:

- saturated road infrastructure
- too many HGVs on the roads
- out-dated laws and speed limits
- a shockingly poor standard driving test

It fustrates me like mad everyone bunching in the outside lane when the inside 2 lanes are virtually destered apart from a lorry and a dozy middle lane cruiser. But on the flip side, I hate also the typically chavved up Saxo that goes charging up the inside, then tries to cut in at the last second.

OK - overtaking on the left as a manoeuvre IS illegal, but passing slower moving traffic on the left is not, I believe.

Therefore, if the outside lane is crawling along between 40 and 60, as it often can, driving in the middle or inside lane at 70 should be legal I think, as long as it wasn't your intention to overtake.

Any coppers on here to confirm or correct that?

[JohnnyC]

On a 3 lane motorway I would never move over from lane 2 to lane 1 to get past a middle lane hogger.

But... if I were in lane 1 to begin with, then I'd just continue 'passing them on the inside' in lane 1 - and this is something that occurs quite often (and I wish it didn't, but until something is done about these lane hoggers...). But I'm certainly not going to make 4 lane changes to get around them. I also make sure there's nothing on the hard shoulder - so I've got somewhere to go incase they wake up.

On two seperate occasions I've been behind a lane hogger and given them a quick flash and they've moved into lane 1 - only to then swerve towards lane 2 again for NO REASON, making me take evasive action to avoid a collision - yes, there's idiots out there. So frankly I'd rather pass them on the inside than have to flash them.

I would not like to see overtaking on either side to become standard either. I just don't think it'd work in our motorways due to the large speed differences of vehicles. Can you imagine 40-50mph grannies in their Micras with BMWs zooming past on both sides doing 90+

[Sidewinder]

Undertaking; whether illegal or not, is irresponsible and dangerous, and anyone who does it is endangering the lives of other road users as well as being a complete fool that should have their licence taken away.

- saturated road infrastructure

But what can be done? I'm certainly no 'green', but I think we've carved up enough of England's green and pleasant land with motorways and bypasses.

- too many HGVs on the roads

Road freight supports the backbone of the UK's commercial and industrial side. Until someone invents a working Star Trek style transporter, there's no other financially (and logically) viable way to transport goods from A to B.
Those annoying lorries on the motorway are transporting goods for your food cupboards, performance parts for your car, TVs and game systems for your pleasure, etc.
Transporting freight by rail is too expensive and you'd still need road transport somewhere in the equation.

- out-dated laws and speed limits

Yeah, the majority of the road laws are outdated, but I'm not overly keen on raising the speed limits too high. There are too many tossers on the road as it is, let alone allowing them to drive even faster!

- a shockingly poor standard driving test

Indeed. I've always maintained that EVERYONE should have to re-take their driving test ever five years.

How many people bother to buy and read a copy of The Highway Code? I bet close to zero, and the last time they opened it was before their driving test and haven't done since...

[ducatichick]

Both 2 posts are VERY well said.

I have to confess though. If i am stuck behind someone hogging lane 3 and there is noone in lane 2 or 1-i will undertake giving plenty of room for the prat hogging (who is probably eating his lunch on the way to some sales confrence, on the mobile phone and having a fag..all while checking the sat nav )

I spend alot of my life on the most major motorways in the uk and I get sick of it.

[jmachling]

Sidewinder: I wasn't having a go at the HGVs - they're obviously necessary, up to a point. As a result of changes in consumers I do think there's too much transported needlessly on the roads, though.

Who still goes to their local butcher/baker/greengrocer anymore rather than going to a supermarket? Who still takes a bus to a shoppping centre rather than driving to an out of town mall or buying items online to be delivered to their door?

I'm guilty of it too, but it all adds to the number of large slow moving lorries on the roads moving goods between large distribution centres. Are most of the things we buy even made or grown in the UK? Tesco's are selling organic apples from the USA FFS. I'm afraid that apart from the still great but tiny British-owned manufacturing sector, most of the goods on the roads are only directly supporting the backbone of other economies, not ours. The majority of the profits go offshore.

We can't expect to lead a lifestyle similar to the Americans in this cramped little island of ours. There are simply too many of us in the major urban areas. (Incidentally, it'd take the resources of another 27 planets if everyone wanted to live like the average American.)

I agree the current rail network is obviously not up to the job after the poor decisions made in the 60s and 80s. I do think more use should be made of it, though.

HGVs aside, better use could certainly be made of the motorways. Driver education is the key to the lane discipline problem I feel. I was glad to see a police car on the M6 the other day using it's rear LED display to advise a driver very publicly to 'USE CORRECT LANE' =D> I wish we saw more of that.

As for the speed limits, speed doesn't kill, it's the inappropriate use of speed that does. Again, that's down to driver education.

Frankly, I doubt most of us would pass a more stringent driving test like the ones the Swedes use if we were to take it now, or even the standard one for that matter. I remember Clarkson witnessing a driving test in India, though, where apparently there's a guy in Calcutta who's registered blind but has a licence, so it could be worse!

[/rant]

[mattcambs]

Undertaking; whether illegal or not, is irresponsible and dangerous, and anyone who does it is endangering the lives of other road users as well as being a complete fool that should have their licence taken away.

Hmmm. That's a bit of a moral high ground you've taken there. In the US you can under and overtake on their freeways - are they endangering people's lives? I realise that undertaking is not in our driving culture, but like someone else said, you won't get me changing 4 lanes just to get around a middle lane hogger when I can just drive along as normal in the inside lane.

- saturated road infrastructure

But what can be done? I'm certainly no 'green', but I think we've carved up enough of England's green and pleasant land with motorways and bypasses.

- too many HGVs on the roads

Road freight supports the backbone of the UK's commercial and industrial side. Until someone invents a working Star Trek style transporter, there's no other financially (and logically) viable way to transport goods from A to B.
Those annoying lorries on the motorway are transporting goods for your food cupboards, performance parts for your car, TVs and game systems for your pleasure, etc.
Transporting freight by rail is too expensive and you'd still need road transport somewhere in the equation.

Have to agree with you here, mate. I think though that left hookers should legally HAVE to have extra mirrors on the right. A dutch driver changed lanes into my old car 4 years ago at 60mph - I'm lucky to be alive.

- out-dated laws and speed limits

Yeah, the majority of the road laws are outdated, but I'm not overly keen on raising the speed limits too high. There are too many tossers on the road as it is, let alone allowing them to drive even faster!

Correct

- a shockingly poor standard driving test

Indeed. I've always maintained that EVERYONE should have to re-take their driving test ever five years.

That would just be ridiculous. For a start, I am a very safe driver (6 years NCD), but there is no way that I could pass a driving test without some refresher lessons. You try driving for 45 minutes without crossing your hands to steer. People/businesses could not afford for the time taken out trying to re-pass their test.

How many people bother to buy and read a copy of The Highway Code? I bet close to zero, and the last time they opened it was before their driving test and haven't done since...[/quote]

The test, I think, is actually more than adequate. There should, imo however, more police on the roads to enforce safe driving standards.
Good thread, though.

Matt

[jmachling]

The test, I think, is actually more than adequate. There should, imo however, more police on the roads to enforce safe driving standards.

Sorry, but I can't agree that a test that enables you to drive on motorways with no training or experience and at night with no formal need for training is even adequate.

More police on the roads is a laudable thing, but it's a sticking plaster rather than a cure.

[mattcambs]

Yeah, I agree to a point.

Maybe there should be far more insentives from insurance companies to give discounts to people who have passed "extra" tests, like for example a motorway/night test.

[jmachling]

or NSDs for MR2 Mk II owners (No Spin Discounts)

[mattcambs]

The test could be far better, but as with everything, the logistics of getting everyone to fit in the motorway/night driving parts prevents its inclusion.

It's been a while since I did my theory test (they'd only just brought it in), but maybe that should include a more extensive motor driving section, because I completely agree - far too many people out there simply don't know how to correctly drive on the motorways.

[mattcambs]

or NSDs for MR2 Mk II owners (No Spin Discounts)

certainly looking forward to getting one this spring. In the meantime IMOC is nicely satisfying my MR2 urges!

[jmachling]

Contributing to IMOC without actually owning an MR2. Now that's dedication! You aren't the only one I'm sure. Perhaps you could get together and form your own branch in the meantime - the IMOAC (International MR2 Almost Owners Club)

I hope you find a good one. Might be better to try to find one now though - prices tend to be lower in the winter.

[Sidewinder]

Some good discussion here chaps!

When driving on the road, I never cross my hands. It just doesn't seem natural, and I haven't done it in 16 years of driving (on the road). On the track, however, it's the only way to drive!

The way our driving tests work at the moment is crazy, and my suggestion that people should retest every five years would get rid of a large chunk of road incompetency overnight. Can't pass = no licence.

There's got to be some explanation/reason why the standard of driving is so poor in this country.

[jrleech]

Overtaking is the process of pulling out, passing a vehicle on the right, then pulling back in again.

By that datum, undertaking would be pulling in, passing on the left, then pulling back out again.
If you're in the left hand lane and it is going faster than the other lanes, this is not undertaking, it's passing vehicles on the left hand side. Whether it's legal or not??

If traffic is heavy and all lanes are doing 50mph, then often the inside lane is quicker, as lorry drivers tend to try and maintain speed unlike the 'right hand lane brigade' that accellerate hard at the first gap, then have to slam on, eventually creating stationary traffic in the a few minutes further down the lane.

Personally, I'll happily sit in the left hand lane and pass on the left under those circumstances, but I don't undertake (well maybe once or twice a year when there's an empty motorway and someone refuses to budge from the right hand lane, and then I'll try and leave a clear lane between us incase he decides to pull in).

[jmachling]

Some good discussion here chaps!

I'm enjoying it!

When driving on the road, I never cross my hands. It just doesn't seem natural, and I haven't done it in 16 years of driving (on the road). On the track, however, it's the only way to drive!

Absolutely - I think if you end up with your arms crossed on the road you're overdoing things. Plus you'll break both arms and your face if your airbag goes off.

The way our driving tests work at the moment is crazy, and my suggestion that people should retest every five years would get rid of a large chunk of road incompetency overnight. Can't pass = no licence.

There's got to be some explanation/reason why the standard of driving is so poor in this country.

I think the extra testing would no doubt work, but the management of it would be a nightmare. I believe the extra expense could probably be offset by a reduction in taxes for a reduction in expensive accidents not drawing on police/NHS funds so much.

I think the poor standard of driving is unfortunately linked to the lack of respect the average UK citizen has for one another now, and also to the bizarrely territorial attitude the Brits seem to have to driving. Probably a throwback to our colonial past.

e.g. Merging traffic queues. Everyone has to get into the lane that isn't closing as soon as they can rather than filtering in neatly at the obstruction. God help you if you drive up to the front in the closing lane and actually try that though - everyone just stares straight ahead and closes the gaps as if to let you know 'I can't see you so you're not going to pull out into MY space in front of me. We may have lost the Americas, but this space is mine I tell you...mine mine!!'

You can see it at bus stops too. We're the only nation that can form an orderly queue of 1 in case we lose our pole position. We don't stand anywhere in the bus stop, we'll stand by the bus stop, on the right side, facing the right way. It's hilarious to see when it happens.

[jmachling]

Overtaking is the process of pulling out, passing a vehicle on the right, then pulling back in again.

Being a pedant I'd have said that overtaking is the process of getting in front of the vehicle in front, and undertaking would be the process of pulling out, reducing speed and slotting in behind the vehicle behind you.

That would certainly make a difference to traffic flow