Poor braking - not pads or disks.

Discussion and technical advice for 84-89 AW10 & AW11 MR2. 3A-LU, 4A-GE, 4A-GZE.

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GaryR
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Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:53 pm
Location: Cambridge

Poor braking - not pads or disks.

Post by GaryR »

I got an advisory notice with my MOT indicating that the front brakes only just met the required service brake efficiency, so I checked the pads & disks and they both look fine. 6mm left on the pads and about 2mm wear on the disks, although I couldn't find the minimum thickness limit listed anywhere... Haynes says it's stamped on the rotor, but I couldn't see it. :(

I also checked the 'brake booster' as described in the Haynes manual and that appears to be ok.

I guess this means it's a stuck or sticking caplier, any hints on how to test/fix or other ideas?

TIA,
Gary
nwpsb52
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Re: Poor braking - not pads or disks.

Post by nwpsb52 »

I would try bleeding first you may have some air in the system this would account for them being low on efficiency worth a try.


Pal
spudgun
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Location: Somerset

Re: Poor braking - not pads or disks.

Post by spudgun »

Hi gary,
If there is air in the system the brake pedal will feel spongy, not firm, and will tend to have a fair bit of travel in it when you apply the brakes.
My money is on the brake calipers being stuck though. They normally drag a bit once you have problems, and this will cause them to get hot and this can be one way of finding out which one is giving the problem.
Go for a bit of a drive, around 12 miles or so and once you have stopped feel each wheel for one that is warmer than the other, its normally quite noticable, and see how you get on from there. hth.
GaryR
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Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:53 pm
Location: Cambridge

Re: Poor braking - not pads or disks.

Post by GaryR »

spudgun wrote:Hi gary,
If there is air in the system the brake pedal will feel spongy, not firm, and will tend to have a fair bit of travel in it when you apply the brakes.
My money is on the brake calipers being stuck though. They normally drag a bit once you have problems, and this will cause them to get hot and this can be one way of finding out which one is giving the problem.
Go for a bit of a drive, around 12 miles or so and once you have stopped feel each wheel for one that is warmer than the other, its normally quite noticable, and see how you get on from there. hth.


I don't think there is air in the system as the brake pedal is very firm and there isn't much travel when applied. I had the front up on jacks today and the front wheels spun ok, but it did sound like the pads where rubbing against the disks, but I know there's a fine line between what's normal and a stuck caliper.

I can't really go for a drive as the car's SORNed at the moment, but thanks for the hint.

Gary.
Ad Mayo
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Location: Driffield. East yorkshire

Re: Poor braking - not pads or disks.

Post by Ad Mayo »

I would take your calipers off and take the pistons out. They could be full of muck or rusty. Have a look at the rubber gaitor on the piston if its split it will let alot of crap in.
crazylegs
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Re: Poor braking - not pads or disks.

Post by crazylegs »

the front brakes normally give no trouble. my money is on the sliders being stuck causing the brakes to apply proper pressure to one side of the disc only. if it was the pistons sticking you would get no brakes. as it was an advise at the mot then this would indicate they were both working and reasonably evenly.
GaryR
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Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:53 pm
Location: Cambridge

Re: Poor braking - not pads or disks.

Post by GaryR »

crazylegs wrote:the front brakes normally give no trouble. my money is on the sliders being stuck causing the brakes to apply proper pressure to one side of the disc only.


Is that an easy thing to fix? Are the calipers a single single-sided piston?

Cheers,
Gary.
Blokey

Re: Poor braking - not pads or disks.

Post by Blokey »

...wild thought - the brakes are servo assisted... If the pedal is hard with the engine running it may be your servo isn't seeing vacuum....or is leaking....

Next time you start your engine try doing so with your foot resting firmly on the brake pedal - when the engine catches and starts turning over the brake pedal should move down slightly and feel a little softer - if it doesn't then the servo may not be seeing vacuum.

...also - are you finding your engine idles unusually highly? If so then there may be a hole in the diaphragm of your servo which is letting air in - which spoils the vacuum in there hence little or no servo assitance - but also flows in to the engine when idling and allows it to idle at higher revs than normal.

Just a couple of thoughts to check on.
B.
GaryR
Posts: 302
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Location: Cambridge

Re: Poor braking - not pads or disks.

Post by GaryR »

Blokey wrote:...wild thought - the brakes are servo assisted... If the pedal is hard with the engine running it may be your servo isn't seeing vacuum....or is leaking....

...also - are you finding your engine idles unusually highly? If so then there may be a hole in the diaphragm of your servo which is letting air in - which spoils the vacuum in there hence little or no servo assitance - but also flows in to the engine when idling and allows it to idle at higher revs than normal.

Just a couple of thoughts to check on.
B.


One thing I have found is that the engine revs rise slightly when the brake are applied - I noticed it when moving in traffic, I've always thought it was normal........
Blokey

Re: Poor braking - not pads or disks.

Post by Blokey »

...yup - mine does that when I press the brake pedal and if it's idling and I pump the brake pedal the revs rise and continue to stay high while the brake pedal is being pumped, I think that's normal, or at least it's what mine does and that has no problems.

Ho hum - it sonds like the servo is ok then....have you noticed the brake pedal settling down when you start the engine? If it does then the servo idea is blown out of the water.

B.
GaryR
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Location: Cambridge

Re: Poor braking - not pads or disks.

Post by GaryR »

Blokey wrote:...yup - mine does that when I press the brake pedal and if it's idling

Ho hum - it sonds like the servo is ok then....have you noticed the brake pedal settling down when you start the engine? If it does then the servo idea is blown out of the water.

B.


I think the servo is ok - I did all the test listed in Haynes, pressing the pedal and starting the engine (it moves a small amount) repeatly pressing the pedal with the engine running and checking that the pedal travel doesn't increase with each press (which it doesn't)

Kev posted earlier that it could be the sliders being stuck causing the brakes to apply proper pressure to one side of the disc only - which would make sense as the test indicated they where only 50% effective - but that could just be the default MOT error message. :?

Thanks for the idea though.
Gary.
Tony jinxy froude
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Re: Poor braking - not pads or disks.

Post by Tony jinxy froude »

Im with Kev on this one, we've seen it so many times on various MK1's we've had, i have to do my own about every 6 months otherwise they seize. Its not a difficult job to do, but when you do have a look make sure the rubber boots havnt any holes in them, this will let dirt & brake dust into the sliding links & will cause them to seize, oh & dont use copperslip either, just use a good quality grease. Jinxy
johnp
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Re: Poor braking - not pads or disks.

Post by johnp »

Tony,I agree with your diagnosis.Also, look carefully at each pair of pads ----if one pad of the pair is worn more than the other then it is DEFINITE that the sliders are seized.
But,Tony,just one question ,why not 'copperslip'--?
jimi
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Re: Poor braking - not pads or disks.

Post by jimi »

The revs rise when you brake because the "idle up" circuit kicks in when the brake lights come on, perfectly normal on a MK1.
hth
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GaryR
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Location: Cambridge

Re: Poor braking - not pads or disks.

Post by GaryR »

Tony jinxy froude wrote:Im with Kev on this one, we've seen it so many times on various MK1's we've had, i have to do my own about every 6 months otherwise they seize. Its not a difficult job to do


What's the procedure for fixing this - Is it just a case of taking the calipers off the car and cleaning them up?

Cheers,
Gary.
crazylegs
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Re: Poor braking - not pads or disks.

Post by crazylegs »

yep thats about it. unbolt the calipers and it will all become clear. you should be able to swing them free of the disc. its a simple job well worth everyone doing as a part of a service.
Tony jinxy froude
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Re: Poor braking - not pads or disks.

Post by Tony jinxy froude »

johnp wrote:
But,Tony,just one question ,why not 'copperslip'--?


Only use white Lithium grease John. Copperslip + brake dust = Seized links, Anna & Garrick taught me this last year & to be honest, although i still do mine every 6 - 8 months they are not as bad as they were when i was using Copperslip, hope this helps, cheers, Jinxy
LimeyMk1
IMOC Committee
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Re: Poor braking - not pads or disks.

Post by LimeyMk1 »

Another thing that seems to be overlooked is the condition of the pad carriers, these need to be clean before new pads are put in or the pads jam in the carrier. I'd be tempted to remove the pad/caliper carriers and the securing clips then bash off all the old pad material, rust and road muck that can build up. This gets behind the clips that secure the pads and can jam them up. The pads should slide easily into the carriers without needing the application of significant force. If you're running dusty pads (Pagid etc) I'd do this every time I change the pads.

HTH

Chris
Tony jinxy froude
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Re: Poor braking - not pads or disks.

Post by Tony jinxy froude »

Yep chris i remember doing this too on occasions :mrgreen: (Ens ), some brake pad manufactuers put quite thick paint on the backing plates, this can cause them to stuck solid in the pad retainer grooves, just file them slightly & they should move freely when in place. Jinxy
LimeyMk1
IMOC Committee
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Re: Poor braking - not pads or disks.

Post by LimeyMk1 »

Well I changed the pads on my L reg Celica on Saturday and it really made me realise how it should go together, no fuss, no hassle. The brakes are the same design as the Mk1 (apart from the handbrake \:D/ ) and there were NO issues with fitment of the EBC Black pads I bought, I even got the shims back on. :shock:
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