All the way on stock internals....

[MR2Mania]

Its obvious that this approach will divide opinion. Some people are all for pushing as hard as they can with what they have got and others prefer to consider every fine detail before moving ahead.

James, what I'm concerned about is HOW people know better than someone that used to test stuff to destruction at TTE as his job!! If they're so good, why don't they just apply to an F1 or WRC team for a job??

Which brings me on to what I don't agree with what *you* said about the mapping. If the US has better mappers than the UK, then why do the US race teams buy their chassis and engines from the UK? Why are WRC, F1 and all other top-level motorsport teams in the UK, or Europe? It's not by accident, mate.

One thing that many people haven't grasped is the difference in mapping with race fuel compared to regular road fuel. For a start, most race fuels have oxygen content in them that affects the air/fuel mixture (hence why often you have to richen up the fueling when some race fuel is dropped into an engine mapped for road fuel.

More importantly though, the higher the octane, the less "explosive" the mixture is. In fact, fuel burns as a wave front, and the higher the octane the slower that wave front burns. However, you can run more ignition advance with that race fuel. This is where the extra power comes from. On a typical 2litre turbo engine, for every degree of extra advance that you can run, it should be worth an extra 10bhp. A lot of the time, you can run 10degrees more ignition advance without getting anywhere near det - that's an extra 100bhp from nothing!!!

This is with everything else staying constant (ie boost, intake temps, fuel mixture, etc). So, if a race fuel can give THAT much more power, you can see why they're not really that comparable.

Also note that a lot of the guys in the US are using race fuel on the strip. They tend to run less boost too on road fuel, and raise it once they've dropped in some race fuel. So again, being in a country when very few of us want to start using race fuel to get the power, and in a country where we tend to run considerably higher boost, we're not comparing apples to apples. How many people in the US run even 19-20psi ON ROAD FUEL?

So you see, in the UK, we are asking a HELLUVA lot more from our tuners. If we were to use race gas, we'd be making it a LOT easier for them!

[michael]

Don't make me use it please, this has the potential to be a good technical thread that can be used as reference in the future, please don't spoil it with grudges and personal attacks.

[light]

Okay, dudes, I have practical evidence in what has been acheaved with rev3 engines and to say the least apart from me and jef, who else here or any other tuner taken the rev3 stock internals to there limmits to produce valid apinions.
Point being don't tell me or anyone how it should be when u hav'nt done it ur self.
Jef and a few others have proven practically, so there's no point voicing theories with out practical evidence.
If any one else has taken rev3 stock internals to there limmits with practical evidence then please correct me if u have defferent results.

Any way, b**ching aside, move on, this is 2006, not 2005, go on spit the dummy out.

We are hear to learn from each other, if am wrong and practically proven wrong then my hands are up so chill a litle and peacefully share in the good things that are free.

[light]

........and there goes the cat out of it's little bag! =D>

But wait just a minute, perhaps Xxxx has now seen (The Light) hence the new user name!?

Joking aside. I think that we have learned that what ever Xxxx and his magic mystery tour of a car managed to pull off in terms of times over the 1/4 is very much clouded in terms of the spec of the car internally. All this due in part to some of the worst attemps of lying I think I had ever seen.

The infamous Mr Xxxx (aka Light) for all that don't know was banned from iMOC for doctering time slips from York dragway in an attempt to make us all believe he had managed to pull a 10 second 1/4.

So I heed a big warning to all those that would follow the advice of the en-Light-ened Mr Xxxx.....anyone see what I did there . Trust me when I tell you that the advice offered is bad to core!

Mikejc

Okay mike in practice I did, here's the evedence 11.26@130mph 1/4 at only 1.893 60ft,So with a 60ft of 1.5/6 the car will be sitting at 10.9sec 1/4, its not hard to work out is it.Thats why I have moved on to the next project, because i got the results I wanted practically, so in a way I proved the slip was acheavable.

As for the car having stock internals, there's no point in doughts now, when the car has gone, I gave many opertunaties to people to inspect the car when it was producing 11.6's and 11.4's, no body questioned it then .

[MR2Mania]

Okay, dudes, I have practical evidence in what has been acheaved with rev3 engines and to say the least apart from me and jef, who else here or any other tuner taken the rev3 stock internals to there limmits to produce valid apinions.

Xxxx, you've managed to turn this crock of a thread into proof that it *is* indeed you!!! Nice one!!! =D>

Three FACTS for you to chew on:
1) AFAIK, Jeff's engine is NOT a Rev3
2) You LIED before, so WHY should anyone trust you?
3) You too were using race fuel (not that this is as significant here compared to point 2).

So, in summary, there's no RELIABLE source that I can see here for proving ANY revision of stock 3SGTE engine can take more than 1.5 bar for a limited period.

Back to the original point of the thread, Andy Conroy, good luck to you. You are obviously trying to get as much power as you can out of stock internals, yet in the back of your mind you're prepared for a failure if it happens (which is sensible because it WILL fail at some point!). My one word of advice for you though will be don't bother running that much boost on a TD06. We once pushed an externally gated Greddy TD06 as far as we could go on an Evo, and even though it kept producing more power, above 1.4bar we were getting major issues with fluttering - possibly compressor surge. If you're going to try and run that much boost, personally I'd choose a Garrett GT turbo sized correctly for the desired power levels. Not only are the cores much more tough at taking these high boost levels, but this where those turbos start to really come alive like no other. The TD06 has it's place (ie trying to get as much power out of stock internals), but up to a certain point. All evidence I've seen is that it's only good for 450bhp, if that.

[Quigonjay]

imoc would be a worse off place without you mate, where would we be without dino putting us straight every now and then
Obviously you have bigger fish to fry at the moment now your going to be a father and all but i too have always enjoyed reading your posts and hope you will continue to do so, always felt like i'd learnt something after reading some of your late night technical posting that you used to do so often, sadly not so often anymore
As mark said though, as your not really around that much anymore not everyone knows who you are/your history, club is growing at such an astonishing rate and theres always going to be people who think they know best.
I hope you will reconsider not frequenting imoc again as i for one would appreciate any advice you may be able to give in the future (lots of plans)
BTW - bought bens old car eventually, that turbo must be at least a stage 2 - it goes like stink up to the redline

[Goldy]

People on here need to learn not to spout crap about things they don't know about... There is far too much imature bickering and bull$h1t floating around for my liking these days. People jump on the bandwagon to put their 2p in without really thinking what they are talking about. I'm not going to say i'm perfect but I do know when to shut my mouth on issues and i'll be first to say i'm wrong.

I have never seen Dino give out bad advice, It would be a shame to lose a valuable member of the community over a petty arguement. In the end the opinions expressed in this thread do not matter to Andy as he obviously has his heart set on this project.

I think we should support andy in the intrests of exploration, as he obviosly knows the risks involved, arguing about it is not going to make any real difference other than to divide the community and create a bad image for imoc.

I really wish people on here would take a step back once in a while and listen to themselves.

Sorry if i've offended anyone i've had a drink or 2 and i'm speaking my mind now.

All this arguing is not good for the community.

-- Simon

[Hedgehog Dodger]

So, in summary, there's no RELIABLE source that I can see here for proving ANY revision of stock 3SGTE engine can take more than 1.5 bar for a limited period.

I dont want to open a can of worms, but before I sold the car/engine to Xxxx (after my accident) I was running 2 bar for about 5 months without any problems, and I was using the car every single day.

I cant prove to everyone that I did do this, but people who came out in the car with me, mates ETC, all saw.

The only problems I did get was the oil breather, as my catch can was full off tissue (dont know how it go in there) causing a blockage and oil pressure to build. Thats when the Buscuit tin turned into the SMOKEY BISCUIT TIN, if anyone remembers that day.

My 2p's worth

[Mikejc]

Well I think its time to move and and put the bitching side of this tread to rest, but before we do i'd like to mention just a couple of things...

Now we know that Light is infact Xxxx, should he not yet again be given the boot?

Dino you can't leave buddy because of a small few. I'm more than sure I speak for the masses of iMOC when I say that your time is well spent on here helping us all out and greatly appreciated =D>

Mikejc

[Andy Conroy]

Yes less b1tching please.....


Yes i am fully prepared and aware of all the risks.. and yes i am using MY ENGINE as a learning curve on the fact that i am interested in how far i can go... I know there are going to be BIG and small issues that arise when i start turning up boost etc.... i am fully prepared for that and if there is a need to rebuild or buy a new engine then i will..... Dino thanks for the advice mate and the same for Graeme, Mark and James, it's all well appreciated...

Like i've said i will post results when it happens, but i will also post when and if my engine Blows up..... Watch this space

[ENSMR2]

Yes less b1tching please.....


Yes i am fully prepared and aware of all the risks.. and yes i am using MY ENGINE as a learning curve on the fact that i am interested in how far i can go... I know there are going to be BIG and small issues that arise when i start turning up boost etc.... i am fully prepared for that and if there is a need to rebuild or buy a new engine then i will..... Dino thanks for the advice mate and the same for Graeme, Mark and James, it's all well appreciated...

Like i've said i will post results when it happens, but i will also post when and if my engine Blows up..... Watch this space

Are you using a rev 3?

[CosmosblueMR2]

Are you using a rev 3?

and also has anyone found out who is doing the mapping ?
will you enlighthen us ? [-o<

[Bender Unit]

James, what I'm concerned about is HOW people know better than someone that used to test stuff to destruction at TTE as his job!! If they're so good, why don't they just apply to an F1 or WRC team for a job??

Dont get me wrong feller I am not siding with anyone on this. However if Andy wants to find out the hard way then he will. I am more than certain that it will probably fail. But if it he rebuilds it now or it fails further down the line and needs a rebuild means he will still end up in the same place with the possibility that he may be worse off as things could get damaged that wouldnt have been the case if he rebuilt ahead of the intended power hike.

Which brings me on to what I don't agree with what *you* said about the mapping. If the US has better mappers than the UK, then why do the US race teams buy their chassis and engines from the UK? Why are WRC, F1 and all other top-level motorsport teams in the UK, or Europe? It's not by accident, mate.

I was being diplomatic on this one feller. There are good UK tuners to world class levels but how many IMOCers will be taking their cars to these mappers? A small handfull at most. It seems to be that the usual affair is to get your car mapped you head down to Thor and then subsequently have to pick up the tab for a full rebuild after its died on the rollers. That was what I was implying, when I said that I dont feel the quality of mapping is there; not that it was impossible to get a good mapper in the UK.

As for the Chasiss statement we all know the Americans dont know what a corner is, so they need UK Chassis builders to make them a car that goes around bends

As you also point out, race fuel is being used and these cars make this power for 11 seconds at a time on the drag strip. It hardly shouts reliability. Could the car do one lap around a circuit at that power level? Probably not. I personally also feel the TD06 isnt the best turbo for the job.

Coming back to the point, whilst everything you have said is right and you can fall back on some very imformed people Andy has still chosen his path and its quite clear that after 10 pages he is aware of the risks and possible financial out lay if it goes boobs up. Fair play to him if he wants to take that option, not everyone walks the same path in life.

TBH even if it goes boobs up its most likley that a ring land will go in very boring fashing and its going to be an engine strip and rebuild with a few better bits.

Cheers

James

[MR2Mania]

Well I think its time to move and and put the b1tch side of this tread to rest, but before we do i'd like to mention just a couple of things...

Mike (as well as quigonjay, Goldy, Mark Edwards and others that have given their support), I *really* appreciate your appreciation but it's something I've been weighing up over Xmas. I simply won't have anywhere near the time I have had in the past, and I've got to now concentrate on supporting the whole family. I don't mind giving advice, but you know what I'm like - if someone doesn't agree, I normally enjoy the ensuing debate. However, things don't really get debated anymore - people are all too ready to say I'm an "idiot", or "no expert", and that I should know better being in the business - yeah, OK, whatever!

My thinking is that I can still help by posting the occassional technical article on my own MR2Mania.com site. That way, people can't really argue - they've got nowhere to post their drivel!

The reason I've not had a chance to develop MR2Mania.com as I would have liked is because I've spent SOOOO long on here debating. Maybe I'll have more time on my hands to do so if I'm not on this forum, and that way the know-it-alls can feel comfortable that they've got their own domain to "excel" in. Besides, I can think of a handful of very good techies on here (top of my list being JJ). You just have to work out who they are, that's all!

With regards to pushing the stock internals as far as possible (RELIABLY!), I was planning on doing this myself by trying to build a wicked little Mk2 turbo track day car as cheaply as possible (ie stock internals, the new Unichip when it eventually comes out, stripped out interior, ext. eg TD06 running 1.45bar max, or maybe a bespoke Garrett GT built to my own specs, etc, etc), but to be honest I recently went on another single seater day in the wet and I found myself again and thought "why am I bothering with road cars when they're so compromised already for track use? Why not just spend less money and buy a geared go kart which is hard to beat for involvement, speed and focus? It's also a LOT cheaper to run!".

Anyway, the thing was, since this cheap Mk2 was going to be solely for trackday use, I would have logged how long it would have lasted on track at full chat. After all, if you were designing a performance road car, you'd surely want to ensure that it could take whatever you throw at it? For example, I bet when Bugatti were developing the Veyron they ensured that all systems will remain stable for 10 continuous minutes at full boost (since this wouldn't be achieveable in the real world as it would run out of fuel some time before!). That's the kinda reliability I like to see for any car, whether road or race. Let's not forget that this year's McLaren (MP4-20) was the fastest of the field but without the reliability, they were the first of the losers.

Anyway, back on topic. What ECUs and mappable devices have Xxxx, Hedgehog and Jeff been using? It's important to know this if there is to be any mileage in the theory that tuning is where it's at.

[MR2Mania]

James, it seems to me that you and I are beginning to pretty much agree on everything. How scary is that???

TBH even if it goes boobs up its most likley that a ring land will go in very boring fashing and its going to be an engine strip and rebuild with a few better bits.

Yep, totally agree. On all revisions, that's the classic point of failure of too much boost. Which reminds me, how come Jeff's head gasket hasn't gone a long time ago seeing as he's not got a Rev3, as usually this is the first point of failure for too much boost on a Rev1/2? It's little things like this that keep making me think that Jeff's machine is just one of those freaks of nature (in a nice way!), especially when you compare to what everyone else is experiencing. Every now and then you get one engine that seems to defy all logic - but it doesn't mean that ALL engines can do this!

[CosmosblueMR2]

Now we know that Light is infact Xxxx, should he not yet again be given the boot?

already dealt with Mike. Now mods know for sure.

[Andy Conroy]

My car indeed is a 91 Rev1... Used to be Canny's car..... as for the mapper... It has not been decided... One thing for sure it will be taken where it is done properly.

[CosmosblueMR2]

My car indeed is a 91 Rev1... Used to be Canny's car..... as for the mapper... It has not been decided... One thing for sure it will be taken where it is done properly.

have you got a shortlist ?

[Andy Conroy]

My car indeed is a 91 Rev1... Used to be Canny's car..... as for the mapper... It has not been decided... One thing for sure it will be taken where it is done properly.

have you got a shortlist ?

Sort of... but doing more research.... at the end of it i want to be in a postion to tune it myself....

[ENSMR2]

Dino, I believe Jeff is using the Hydra Nemesis. Think Xxxx was using either HKS or Apexi.

Dino, I don't think you should outright leave this place. It'd be a shame to see you go. But I understand that there are things more important in life then going on a forum etc etc. Stop in from time to time, it wont hurt ya