Which cams????

[Peter Gidden]

Point taken, and apologies.

What i meant to say, was to confirm they will lift out, as opposed to head off and out of one end..

[Rogue]

Easy to fit.. Remove cambelt, then the cams can be lifted out.

Because removing the cambelt is the easiest job in the world! We're not all as mechanically gifted as you Peter

Pah! You can remove the cambelt with a stanley knife. It's putting it back in that's trickier...



Rogue

[Peter Gidden]

Pah! You can remove the cambelt with a stanley knife. It's putting it back in that's trickier...

=D> =D>

[jonb-]

That's how my aircon belt went

And check your PM's Peter

[D3xt3r]

But beware of hard bolts.

Recently removed an 3S-GTE from an old ST165 Celica Turbo and wanted to get the cams out so I opened everything but the damm bolt right under the cam gear wouldnt get out. Tried everything but in the end it just went round.

Two tools got broken when we welded them to the bolt....

I will never do head work again if the bolts dont come off easy...

Oh and I will go for 264 pipers with their single springs...

[Al-sw20]

Thats two cam manufacturers that are more expensive than the HKS cams then. Our local cam manufacturer Kelford Cams <- LINK
wants about $100 more for the 264s than I can get the HKS's for.

[Owen @ Kent Car Craft]

I went for a 272 intake and 264 exhaust in the end,
There's a lot of contradictory opinion in the US about the combo but i'm gonna see what happens with that mix+GT3040.
Some good result so far!

[MR2Mania]

Thats two cam manufacturers that are more expensive than the HKS cams then. Our local cam manufacturer Kelford Cams <- LINK
wants about $100 more for the 264s than I can get the HKS's for.

I don't know about the cams that you are referring to, but the HKS cams in Europe are OFFICIALLY more expensive than the Pipers!

Take a look at this link:
http://www.racecarnewmedia.co.uk/hks/eu ... ehicle.asp

According to that, the RRP of HKS cams in Europe is £265+VAT EACH. The Piper cams are £450+VAT per PAIR. So, the Pipers are cheaper. To top that off, for IMOC members I offer them for £465 ALL IN (ie delivered to your door, with no VAT to pay). And I'm an official dealer!

Jonb-, cams for an NA is one of the few worthwhile mods to be done, IMHO. With decent cams, multi throttle bodies and an aftermarket ECU, the results can be astonishing on a well-designed NA, and in most cases, you could break the "100bhp per litre mark". I'd like to see a 3SGE done this way, as I reckon it could break 200bhp - not to mention the amazing throttle response (as the aftermarket ECU will be tuned based on throttle position) and the gorgeous sound that a car on throttle bodies makes when you floor the throttle (YUM YUM!).

I plan to write an FAQ on cams soon, and give some more details on the Pipers, on my website so keep an eye out on www.mr2mania.com

[matt_mr2t]

Would you not need pully's/adjustable am gears when uprating the cams too?

[MR2Mania]

Would you not need pully's/adjustable am gears when uprating the cams too?

Matt, IMHO, yes ideally you *do* need cam pulleys. Otherwise, how are you going to be able to do fine adjustment of the cam timing to get the best out of the cams on your engine?

On a similar note, screech mentioned about 272 cams being too lumpy compared to 264s. This is true, as the more duration you have, the more likelihood of a lumpy engine at idle, but this can be sorted to a certain extent by the cam timing. The lumpiness is caused by the "Overlap" of the cams (ie the bigger the overlap, the longer that the inlet and exhaust valves are both held open). Now, at high revs, this isn't an issue (and this is one way that extra flow is gained), because the speed of the incoming air/fuel is so high, but at idle when the air speed is very low this can cause a lumpy idle. However, by fine-tuning the cam timing, you can reduce this quite a bit. It depends on how you want to time in your cams (you might want to improve midrange performance rather than top end, so it's down to you as the driver as to where you want to be making your improvements).

I've seen the Piper 272s on AndyF's car, and even though the timing isn't set up properly yet, the idle isn't *too* bad for such wild cams.

Personally, I'll be fitting 264s to my engine when I get the car back on the road...

[jonb-]

It's probably just me and because i've not owned or driven one but i love the thought of a lumpy tickover, sounds so racy.

[pnjmcc]

I dont mean to hi-jack this thread but.....

I have never really understood what a thottle body does and why its an advantage.

Are they expensive ?

Regards
PaulM
92 G-Ltd.

[MR2Mania]

I have never really understood what a thottle body does and why its an advantage.

Good question Paul, because it's easily confused when a lot of Jap companies sell replacement single throttle bodies for certain cars (which incidentally from my experience when at Owens don't seem to do what it says on the tin, 9 times out of 10!).

OK, let's take most standard engines. They tend to have a single air box feeding air into the engine via a single throttle body (which houses the throttle butterfly) and into the inlet manifold and then the engine. Now, in the old days of carburettors on Normally Aspirated engines, one way to get more air into the engine (and hence more fuel, and more power!) was to do away with the single carburettor and fit either a double carb, or even a carb for each cylinder. Remember the "2 twin Webbers or Dellortos" always talked about? Essentially, that gave you a carb for each cylinder. Also, at the same time, it was giving you a throttle butterfly for each cylinder.

Anyway, nowadays in the world of engine management systems driving electronic fuel systems, etc, we can still get a similar layout, but instead of having a carb for each cylinder, we just have the piping and throttle butterfly for each cylinder. The injector does away with the need for a carb, and because of the fine-tuning possible with engine management systems, it's WAAAAY better than carbs used to be.

In recent years, there are a handful of cars that have individual throttle bodies per cylinder. The first one that springs to mind is the BMW M3 engine - hence why they're able to get such decent power figures from a relatively small displacement engine.

There IS one downside - because there's now a bigger area for incoming air to flow through to get into the engine, at lower RPM where air speeds are lower, the velocity of the gas is so much slower that it tends to affect bottom end a bit, but the gains at the top end (which is where we're really gonna make the gains on an NA!) far outweigh this, IMHO.

Are they expensive ?

They vary, from engine to engine, because of the requirement of a different inlet manifold, etc. But generally, for most 4-cyl NA engines, you're looking at about £1-1.5k, but this generally includes the whole kit including the ECU. Some places will even fit them for you and tune the car for that money!

Jeez, this has ended up being an essay, but I felt that Throttle Bodies deserve to be explained properly. I promise I won't go technical again... not unless it's on my own site, anyway.

[MR2DIE4]

what about TODA cams? any opinions/experiences?

[D3xt3r]

Adjustable Cam Gears are nice but they will need alot of dyno time to be setup right.

[Al-sw20]

what about TODA cams? any opinions/experiences?

My mate here is selling a pair of Toda 272's for $600nzd. He has the adjustable cam gears too if you need those.

[MR2Mania]

Adjustable Cam Gears are nice but they will need alot of dyno time to be setup right.

Of course, you're dead right. But without adjustable cam gears, you're not guaranteed that you'll be able to set the cams up ideally for your engine.

You're also right about the dyno time to get the cams setup OPTIMALLY (ie to get every last ounce out of them), but then that goes for most other decent mods too, eg standalone ECU, etc.

Piper recommend a set of figures to time each cam set to, and you'll get good results with those settings, but as I said before, each engine is different, and each end user wants a different thing from their engine.

Oh, one thing I forgot to mention earlier... when choosing your cam profiles to use on a turbo engine, you should be looking to match the cams to suit the turbo's characteristics (ie why go for cams intended for big horsepower if your turbo is about fast spool up but doesn't let the engine rev high?). Having said that, an associate of mine in the Evo community who helped develope a set of Piper profiles showed that you *can* use a standard turbo (albeit one of his ball bearing conversions of one) and a set of aggressive cams to get some STONKING midrange torque. A well designed set of cams and a good person setting them up gets great results. The ultimate proof of his "pudding" was when he won the handling discipline with that setup at TOTB a couple of years ago!

[D3xt3r]

I will go for the Piper ones with their cam gears and their springs perhabs this summer. Will go for 264 all around for an TD06 or an GT3076 not decided on the turbo yet.

[greeny]

I'd also reccomend anyone fittin uprated cams to fit uprated springs!!
Don't know if this goes without saying? Just thought id mention it.

Michael

[MR2DIE4]

if using 264 cams on a rev1 NA, is it needed/benificial to upgrade to a rev3 shim under bucket conversion?