Still a bit paranoid!

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Fonzy
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Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 9:33 pm
Location: 3S Service Centre

Still a bit paranoid!

Post by Fonzy »

Still a bit paranoid!

Ok, some of you may already know that im using a 5sfe block to create my 2.2 turbo monster, now the tentioner pulley is giving me a headache! on the 3sgte the pulley swings to keep constant correct tention on the belt, with the 5sfe after tentioning the belt with two turns of the crank you then tighten a bolt that goes directly through the tentioner pulley, which holds the back side of the pulley tigh up against the head so that it no longer swings, although it does spin freely. Having done this twice now all seems to be correct, but im still paranoid that with no lateral movement of the pulley the belt could pop of as it heats up. Now to better explain this just take a look the online manual, which clearly shows the differences! have a look! comments please!
http://www.mr2-tech.com/bgb/mechanical/ ... anical.htm

just hop between the 3sgte timing belt diagram, and the 5sfe. Someone just put my mind at ease! :? [/b]
lower
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Location: Leicester

Re: Still a bit paranoid!

Post by lower »

the manual seems to indicate a tensioning spring, that pesumably means that the pulley should be able to move and the tensioning spring keeps the tension.

unless of course i'm misunderstanding what you are saying in your post.
Fonzy
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Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 9:33 pm
Location: 3S Service Centre

Re: Still a bit paranoid!

Post by Fonzy »

the spring pulls the belt to the correct tention, then you tighten the bolt which stops the pulley moving further! unusual isnt it! :?
Fonzy
Posts: 1057
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 9:33 pm
Location: 3S Service Centre

Re: Still a bit paranoid!

Post by Fonzy »

Even more confusing is that, unless the pulley is tight fixed against the head the belt pops of when rotating!

Any toyota mechanics here! oh just a thought does anyone have the number for the guy who calls himself 'toyotatech' based near southampton or around that way!
Last edited by Fonzy on Tue Jan 25, 2005 11:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
MegatronUK

Re: Still a bit paranoid!

Post by MegatronUK »

I've never seen an engine where a tensioner can move freely. If it could, then the belt would soon come straight off.

As others have said, the spring is to tension the belt and then you tighten up the tensioner to stop movement. Its pretty much standard fare, to be honest.
Fonzy
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Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 9:33 pm
Location: 3S Service Centre

Re: Still a bit paranoid!

Post by Fonzy »

Thanks mate, but why then does the 3sgte tentioner 'swing' if required and this one doesnt! :?
MegatronUK

Re: Still a bit paranoid!

Post by MegatronUK »

Some designs do, some don't.

Generally, the ones that do rotate require you to rotate the belt two full rotations around all the pulleys so that the tensioner spring pushes the belt to the right tension and then you tighten it. Some don't and you just tighten the tensioner to the right position by hand. Depends on the system, thats all - not that one is inherently better than another.

BTW, does the 3S/5M use plastic tensioners/idlers? If it does, get later metal ones instead - most manufacturers have switched now.
Fonzy
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Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 9:33 pm
Location: 3S Service Centre

Re: Still a bit paranoid!

Post by Fonzy »

they are ally outside and stainless steel core, so am i not correct in saying the 3sgte tentioner swings left/right under the tention of the spring as the norm????????
MegatronUK

Re: Still a bit paranoid!

Post by MegatronUK »

LOL no! :D If it did that as you started the engine the belt would fly off and smash everything to bits! The play in the tensioner is only there while you are fitting the belt and when you rotate the belt around all the pulleys.

I'm *NOT* a toyota engine expert, but I've seen enough timing belt installs to know that a non-tightened tensioner would wreck an engine. I'm sure someone on here will be able to tell you the best way to fit the belt and tensioner (or why the 5M doesn't have the same tensioner design).
Last edited by MegatronUK on Tue Jan 25, 2005 11:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
Fonzy
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Location: 3S Service Centre

Re: Still a bit paranoid!

Post by Fonzy »

$%!$"!$&!$&!$"¬$"¬^$"&¬$"!¬"$¬$"&%"££!"^£""£"¬"£"¬" OFF you mean i took my engine out refitted the timing belt for nothing! because a well know chappy on this forum said it should swing freely! $£"!£$^"£!%"$£!%"£!%$"£%"$£%"£%" :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil::evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :e:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evilvil
MegatronUK

Re: Still a bit paranoid!

Post by MegatronUK »

Look at step 13 of refitting the belt. It tells you what torque the tensioner bolt should be set to.

I could of course be WAY off here and completely wrong - I await to be corrected by a S3GTE expert - but nothing the belt runs over should be capable of moving once at the correct tension, the belt would jump.
Fonzy
Posts: 1057
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Location: 3S Service Centre

Re: Still a bit paranoid!

Post by Fonzy »

yeah i saw that too mate about the tention and have done so! but i was told someothing like, "i can torque that bolt to 70nm but it should still swing" i totally baffled, as this info came from a very respected guy in the toyota world, (names shall remain a mystery) if you was wondering, but thanks cos it was killing me, on one hand i have fitted the belt twice and it looks correct and on the other a well respected guru tells me it should swing! :? :? :? :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:
steve b
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Re: Still a bit paranoid!

Post by steve b »

with the 3s engine the pully swings but tension is set by the hydraulic 'ram' that pushes the pully into the belt you don't tighten the pully or lock it or anything else.
'02 VX220 2.2 n/a Daily driver - Exige Size TD 1.2 - TAT shorty Diffuser - HardTop - Chris Tullet 4-1 Manifold.

'97 mk1 Mazda Eunos Turbo track car with 260bhp/ton - soon more as Chris Wilsons going to build me an engine over the winter :o) .
Fonzy
Posts: 1057
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 9:33 pm
Location: 3S Service Centre

Re: Still a bit paranoid!

Post by Fonzy »

new question for you bud! can i prime the engine with oil by filling the block as norm then rotate the crank by hand/rench, would this create enough pressure to get the oil to most parts, or is there a set speed at which the crank must turn??
MegatronUK

Re: Still a bit paranoid!

Post by MegatronUK »

I'd just disconnect the HT lead and crank it a few times tbh.
MegatronUK

Re: Still a bit paranoid!

Post by MegatronUK »

steve b wrote:with the 3s engine the pully swings but tension is set by the hydraulic 'ram' that pushes the pully into the belt you don't tighten the pully or lock it or anything else.


Ah, good to know steve.
JJ
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Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 9:11 am
Location: Stockton-On-Tees

Re: Still a bit paranoid!

Post by JJ »

a well respected guru tells me it should swing!


The duty of the tensioner wheel/pulley is to keep the tension on the belt. The tension is created by the tensioner piston on the 3s engine or a spring on other engines.

All performance engines I have worked on that involves this mechanism swings the tensioner pulley or jockey wheel., otherwise, how the hell would it keep the tension on the belt ??

Having looked at the 5sfe design, it is different in the sense where the timing tensioner is situated in a position unlikey for the belt to jump - severly staggered to the cam gears.

Okay... I can see the confusion in this.... Looking at the bgb, the design of the 5sfe isn't like a swinging pendulum assembly on the 3s engines, but relys on the pulley being hard bolted against the head / block.

Fonz - you are right in saying, fit it, turn it a couple of times then bolt it down, other wise it will simply fall apart. This holding down bolt it to fix the position of the pulley but also retain its angular position.

Where the confusion is - the 3s has a pendulum effect jockey wheel, the top of the bracket is the holding down point which swings, the pulley is already bolted down to the swinging bracket assembly.

My confusion now - your using a 3SGTE head ? why aren't you using the tensioner assembly for this engine as it all bolts to the head ?

"^£""£"¬"£"¬" OFF you mean i took my engine out refitted the timing belt for nothing!


You did it to be 110% sure !!! Don't take chances on such an expensive rebuild !

would this create enough pressure to get the oil to most parts, or is there a set speed at which the crank must turn??


Jam your compressor on with the bottom pulley bolt and turn it a few times - as long as you have oil in it !! The is a mechanical thats driven off the timing belt, it'll start pumping / drawing the oil from the pickup and deliver it through to the filter onto the main oil galley, when the components will start to get oiled.

:)
|| S256SX Airwerks Powered MR2 Turbo || V10 BMW M5 ||
Fonzy
Posts: 1057
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 9:33 pm
Location: 3S Service Centre

Re: Still a bit paranoid!

Post by Fonzy »

Thanks JJ, using the 3sgte tention isnt possible because it doesnt fit, i expected it to bolt right up too, but having looked at it, i can tell you the head is almost a rev1 3sgte, but even the cam cover is unrecognisable, there have been other smaller things different too. :? i thought perhaps its from one of the first celicas from the states! but still havnt manged to track it down. :?
Fonzy
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Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 9:33 pm
Location: 3S Service Centre

Re: Still a bit paranoid!

Post by Fonzy »

im not sure that the crank bolt is accessable to get the compressor gun on it, hence the hand turned approach question.
Thanks all once again! this build has been a little challenging to say the least, with no hard info available, just snippetts here and there, the other problem being is that most the info is available from the us boys who have done this in many different ways! using different kit and accessories.
I will get there! :twisted:
JJ
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Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 9:11 am
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Re: Still a bit paranoid!

Post by JJ »

Pitty I wasn't closer james, I wouldn't hesitate to help out chap ! :)

Beast in the making ! :twisted:
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