Controlling the TVIS

Discussion and technical advice the SW20 MR2. 3S-GTE, 3S-GE, 3S-FE etc
Anything and everything to do with maintenance, modifications and electrical is in here for the Mk2.

Moderators: IMOC Moderators, IMOC Committee Members

Super_red
Posts: 542
Joined: Mon May 09, 2011 7:10 pm
Location: Guildford

Re: Controlling the TVIS

Post by Super_red »

bobhatton wrote:
Super_red wrote:
Peter Gidden - SBITS wrote:

Yes, since you'll have nothing to open and close the butterflies.


I'm leaving the stock ECU in for this but if the TVIS opperation will mess up fueling then I will gut the TVIS now (or just leave it open). I will be fueling only based on MAP but this wont know if the TVIS is open or closed.

Would I be better using an ECU output or 2 to control the TVIS, I can set them to things like RPM and load so if I used 2 outputs controlling 1 relay I would get TVIS opperation that was constant with the fuel map I would have on the standalone. Switching at a preset RPM only when load is high enough.

I guess what I am asking is is TVIS really worth it for a 300bhp build?


The stock ECU will work ok for 300hp no need to change anything.
If the stock Rev1 & 2 manifold is used then the TVIS should be left working one way or another if its a road car


Dont really care if there is a need or not, the ecu is fitted along with a wide band, its contrling the boost right now and I am going to get it to do the fuel next. My question is is the TVIS wirth keeping and trying to get working or not. Going by this thrad I think not. with it removed does the rev1/2 head suffer really badly low down? I guess the rev 3+ ports are overall smaller to prevent fuel dropout at low loads.
Snulty
Posts: 59
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:55 pm
Location: Belfast

Re: Controlling the TVIS

Post by Snulty »

Some more reading

http://www.imoc.co.uk/forums/viewtopic. ... highlight=

I done some reading on this a few years ago and came to the conclusion that it would be beneficial to keep the TVIS in and control it with some sort of switch at the right rpm, and the tune both sides of the map, before and after the switch.

Google "tvis led" a lot of interesting reading
moscoworbust
Posts: 443
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:59 pm
Location: Guildford

Re: Controlling the TVIS

Post by moscoworbust »

Snulty wrote:Some more reading

http://www.imoc.co.uk/forums/viewtopic. ... highlight=

I done some reading on this a few years ago and came to the conclusion that it would be beneficial to keep the TVIS in and control it with some sort of switch at the right rpm, and the tune both sides of the map, before and after the switch.

Google "tvis led" a lot of interesting reading


yes, this is what i've decided.

What switch did you use? the one i want or the MSD 8950?

Cheers Snulty, good to see you got the facts. The timer thing seems odd, and when we are running twiced the boost and the engine is breathing better the TVIS should open sooner.
moscoworbust
Posts: 443
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:59 pm
Location: Guildford

Re: Controlling the TVIS

Post by moscoworbust »

I was thinking that th Rev 3+ has no TVIS. So what did the designers think had changed whihc meant it was no longer needed. So lets look at the difference between the rev1/2 and 3/4/5.

The different turbo.
The different cams and valve lift.
Larger throttle body
Increased boost.

I miss anything?

It seems that by modifying a rev1 and increasing boost to 14 psi, is quite similar to a rev3. So maybe purely removing it is best or setting a static switch at a low rpm, say 2500 rpm.
Snulty
Posts: 59
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:55 pm
Location: Belfast

Re: Controlling the TVIS

Post by Snulty »

I haven't done it... Yet. Like i say that was quite a while ago, i would do a lot of research first and see what you find, then make a decision, i could have missed something.

Just another thing to add to the list for me.

I'll probably get a MapECU3 installed and set it when to open and close through that. When that well be i don't know.

If i was just using a switch i would go for this,
http://m.summitracing.com/parts/sum-830452-1

As mentioned here http://www.mr2.com/forums/turbo-engine- ... -good.html

Let us know how you get on either way.[/url]
Super_red
Posts: 542
Joined: Mon May 09, 2011 7:10 pm
Location: Guildford

Re: Controlling the TVIS

Post by Super_red »

moscoworbust wrote:I was thinking that th Rev 3+ has no TVIS. So what did the designers think had changed whihc meant it was no longer needed. So lets look at the difference between the rev1/2 and 3/4/5.

The different turbo.
The different cams and valve lift.
Larger throttle body
Increased boost.

I miss anything?

It seems that by modifying a rev1 and increasing boost to 14 psi, is quite similar to a rev3. So maybe purely removing it is best or setting a static switch at a low rpm, say 2500 rpm.


They also compleatly changed the head casting to match the new induction system so its more than just 'bolt on' differences.
moscoworbust
Posts: 443
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:59 pm
Location: Guildford

Re: Controlling the TVIS

Post by moscoworbust »

Differences between revision 1 & 2 engines and revision 3

Just a quick list, do not take any of these as gospel:
position and orientation of oil filter changed.
different internal engine parts, e.g. pistons, con-rods etc.
turbo charger changed from Toyota CT26 to CT20B (same intercooler though).
boost pressure raised from about 10 to about 13 PSI.
power output raised from 220 to 240 BHP.
compression ratio slightly lowered.
injector size increased from 430cc to 540cc.
fuel cut threshold raised from about 12 PSI to about 18 PSI.
head and inlet path completely redesigned. TVIS removed, 8 'independent long ports' reduced to 4.
throttle body increased from 55mm to 60mm.
inlet valve lift increased from 8.2 to 8.7.
different, smarter engine ECU, more tolerant of poor fuel, different connector pin out.
air flow meter removed.
intake manifold inlet air temperature sensor added. i.e. after turbo and intercooler.
ECU now modulates the turbo VSV to achieve variable control of boost pressure rather than either open/full or closed/reduced. Control of boost now quite subtle when ECU is unhappy because of temperatures, detonation, speed, etc.
location of valve shims moved (someone said this was to stop problems with them falling out). If the manual is to be believed, this makes adjusting the valve clearances a much bigger job as on the revision 3 it involves removing the camshafts (might as well replace the timing belt whilst you're at it).
exhaust valve clearance increased by 0.08 mm (probably. valve clearances is one question I'd like answered direct from Japan. They are probably the same as the UK GT4s, but it would be nice to be sure).
oil pan changed from a one piece pressed steel part to a two piece affair, the upper half being aluminium, the lower half being pressed steel.
No. 1 compression ring now described as 'stainless steel' in GT4 manual/supplement instead of just 'steel'. Oil ring is described as 'stainless steel' instead of 'a combination of steel and stainless steel'. No. 2 compression ring remains described as 'cast iron'.
idle speed perhaps slightly reduced (need to check this out on a rev 1 or 2 car, my stickers say 750 rpm, I've a feeling rev 1 & 2 was 800 rpm).
exhaust part numbers changed. Revision 2 part number for the front pipe is superceeded by the revision 3 front pipe part number. Back-box part numbers different. Unknown to me whether they are actually different.
Coolant drain plug added on cylinder block (on older engines the manual says to disconnect a by-pass hose when changing coolant).
KPARRIS-JONES
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:32 pm
Location: Milton Keynes/Wiltshire
Contact:

Re: Controlling the TVIS

Post by KPARRIS-JONES »

When it comes to high performance turbo and supercharged builds with the 4A-GE's pretty well everyone removes the TVIS system.

It's a great idea but when it's a matter of boost then most people find it's too complex to set up correctly regarding the aforementioned issues around VE and the control systems in place, so it's worth removing it completely - where the argument is interesting however is whether or not the ECU recognises the removal of TVIS and then keeps to a correct fuel and spark map.

KP
bobhatton
Posts: 3351
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:34 pm
Location: Bodmin Cornwall

Re: Controlling the TVIS

Post by bobhatton »

KPARRIS-JONES wrote: where the argument is interesting however is whether or not the ECU recognises the removal of TVIS and then keeps to a correct fuel and spark map.

KP


There is no argument about that, how would the ECU know that the TVIS has been removed?

The maps have nothing to do with the TVIS
Designer for turbo set ups on F1 cars, and Nitrous Oxide Systems of the USA in the 80s
Super_red
Posts: 542
Joined: Mon May 09, 2011 7:10 pm
Location: Guildford

Re: Controlling the TVIS

Post by Super_red »

bobhatton wrote:
KPARRIS-JONES wrote: where the argument is interesting however is whether or not the ECU recognises the removal of TVIS and then keeps to a correct fuel and spark map.

KP


The maps have nothing to do with the TVIS


That contradicts what has been previously said in this thread in that the TVIS alters the VE of the engine so the map has to take into account the TVIS?
KPARRIS-JONES
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:32 pm
Location: Milton Keynes/Wiltshire
Contact:

Re: Controlling the TVIS

Post by KPARRIS-JONES »

bobhatton wrote:
KPARRIS-JONES wrote: where the argument is interesting however is whether or not the ECU recognises the removal of TVIS and then keeps to a correct fuel and spark map.

KP


There is no argument about that, how would the ECU know that the TVIS has been removed?

The maps have nothing to do with the TVIS


I don't know, that's why I posed the question in a sense - does the ECU know when TVIS is disconnected. If it can account for engine load then it'd be nice to think that the ECU can run without TVIS at all, maybe in limp mode for example.

The Map would have everything to do with TVIS - the engine would lean out with the sudden increase in the volume of air entering the cylinders, so it must be accounted for in the fuel and spark maps.

KP
bobhatton
Posts: 3351
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:34 pm
Location: Bodmin Cornwall

Re: Controlling the TVIS

Post by bobhatton »

The air flow meter measures the amount of air entering the engine and gives that info to the ECU, together with RPM and a small amount of information from the TPS. That is all the information the ECU needs to confirm the correct amount of fuel and ignition advance. It does not even need to know what the manifold pressure is.
Designer for turbo set ups on F1 cars, and Nitrous Oxide Systems of the USA in the 80s
KPARRIS-JONES
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:32 pm
Location: Milton Keynes/Wiltshire
Contact:

Re: Controlling the TVIS

Post by KPARRIS-JONES »

Now I see our problem - You're on about a MAP sensor when I'm on about the fuel mapping. :P

KP
Post Reply

Return to “MR2 MK2 1990 - 1999 NA & Turbo”