Arent turbos sluggish when trying to drive off boost??

[BenF]

DING!

Mike Hailwood I beleive is quoted as saying "When you can leave black lines from the exit of one to the enterance of the next, then you have enough power"

LOL!

You can never have enough power! After that it's just about control

.... Mark, you're not working for Pirelli nowadays are you ?

[jonno]

I still dont get it, just because a turbo is more powerful does NOT make it slower around a track than an N/A!. Forced induction brings its own challenges on track and requires slightly more focus to ensure you remain on boost and dont end up facing the wrong way on the exit. The rewards are better acceleration out of the corners and a higher top speed on the straights, cornering speed really shouldnt be that much different between an N/A and a turbo, neither should the braking zone - so where is the N/A making up this extra time?

I suspect because the N/A's are easier to drive, the owners are confusing themselves into thinking they are almost as fast as a turbo, when in fact it just because the turbo they are following isnt being driven to its limits.

[GeoffC320]

Also, on the subject of turbos, a N.A would be more efficient up a hill than a turbo (if not on boost) having to change down a gear to compensate.

Err...actually I find mine pulls even better up a hill due to the increased load on the engine 'forcing' it to develop more boost.

I wonder how many people having this discussion have actually driven many examples of each model? Although I've only driven one N/A, I've tried about seven turbos and my experience has been that a bog-stock Rev2 is indeed a bit lame off-boost. I was quite shocked at the lag in fact.

Turn to a well mapped Rev3 with decat etc (or indeed any model with similar spec) and you will find little lag, just tons & tons more power than any N/A.

I hang around with Paul White a fair bit, it's safe to say he gets the most out of his N/A, but I've passengered with him and been $hitting myself at the corner entry speeds...6k on the clock engine screaming...then looked at the speedo and realised it's about what I pull in mine on the same road, just at about 4k revs instead. And then pull PLENTY of distance before the next corner.

His car handles lovely with the Koni's and 16" Toyos but it feels like the handbrake's been left on acceleration-wise (no offence Paul )

I would like to see a bit less sweeping generalisation 'turbo's are like this' and 'N/A's are like that' particularly if people aren't really speaking from experience.

And agree with a couple of other guys, the turbo's aren't hard to drive, even in the wet you can keep up a nice speed if you are smooth with your inputs.

[Bender Unit]

Right so we can gather from this that:

All NA drivers are gods behind the wheel
NA's are better in the wet for some reason that dosnt make any sense
Turbos can only go in straight lines
Turbo owners cant drive
Turbo's cannot corner despite having the same chassis as the NA
NA's supposedly corner better

For straight line speed - Mk2s, NA and Turbo are about even from a rolling start @ 30mph all the way to 80-90mph, with only a couple of car lengths in it - after which the extra power from the turbo means the turbo pulls away at higher speeds.

How can it be "about" even if the turbo puts a few car lengths on the NA? If the Turbo can put "a few car lengths" on the NA in the space of accelerating from 30mph to 90mph that that indicates a massive power and performance differential. Across the 1/4 mile that may not seem like a massive gap but it represents a huge void in performance bewteen the two models.

Now for some basic maths.

Assuming both cars (Turbo/NA)are driven around a track by two equally skilled people and both cars have identical suspension set ups etc. The cars start from a 30mph rolling start. They accelerate from 30 mph to 90mph 10 times over the space of one lap of the circuit. If working on the basis that the Turbo can put 3 car lengths on the NA accelerating from 30mph to 90mph the Turbo will have put 30 car lengths between it and the NA. That is a massive difference in performance and a life time on track between the two cars! Couple that up over a 10 lap race and that’s 280 car lengths difference which is massive!

Not having a dig but same chassis and more power means faster car no matter how you look at it!

[RichardPON]

"I'll beat any turbo" statement.

where did i say this????? another that cant read

I'm guessing he gleaned this through implication of what you've said within this very thread, granted, using quotes was misguided.
For example, your "guarantee" that you "will have" me "on any set of twistys" strongly implies this, as the only information you know about me is that I own an MR2 Turbo.

Spot on.

Further to earlier points mentioned, the accumulation of speed is definitely not as important as the preservation of it. That's why on one trackday, I struggled to lose a race prepped Ford Fiesta Zetec from the challenge series, when I was drivng a 300BHP RWD Cosworth. As much as I'd out accelerate him, I'd have to be braking to bring my corner entry speed down, where he was able to keep momentum and a much smoother lap through his relative "lack of power".

I fully appreciate that a NA in the right hands will be just as quick as a tubby, but that's assuming the driver is 100% skilled and flawless (which of course I am ). In the real world on a trackday, then it's horses for courses, as said person will be quicker in what they are used to.

A good example is this month's EVO magazine - BMW M6 v Clio 182 Cup - 240bhp difference, and similar speed carried through a set route.

However, after all that rambling, I'd still have the tubby every day of the week and twice on Sundays

[Ed]

For track NA is defo better from a driver perspective. Better adjustability on the limit, more linear power delivery, for example mid-corner you are varying throttle inputs all the time as you balance the car. Much harder to do on a turbo as you have to compensate for lag. You can get used to it but the response will never match that of an NA.

You are in the wrong gear then if that is the case with the turbo. Keep it in the powerband whether on a corner or not and there is no lag because you are already on boost.

[Hellboy]

Just to add another 2p

For general road driving turbos are nice in that you can just waft along on the torque and you have mega mid-range power which is great for road driving.

For track NA is defo better from a driver perspective. Better adjustability on the limit, more linear power delivery, for example mid-corner you are varying throttle inputs all the time as you balance the car. Much harder to do on a turbo as you have to compensate for lag. You can get used to it but the response will never match that of an NA.

That said turbos have come a long way since the 70s and the gap is narrowed, but there is something ultimately that bit special (and thus difficult to describe) of revving the nuts off an NA, balancing the throttle at 6K+ and just snatching the next gear at 7.5K on the exit..

You can do that in a Tubby as well ...
and if you have boost set to stock Levels it behaves like a NA and people who are scared of turbos coming on song mid bend are crap drivers and in the totally wrong gear choice if there worried about it comming on power! Drive a Turbo in its rev band and at conre exits you will not have the myth that is LAG and you will be snatching 7250RPM in no time.

On most corner entrys im changing down in the breaking zone with heel toe and entering a corner at around 5-6K and balancing it on the throttle and rollign the on the power out of the corner and then snaching the next gear - exzillarating!

There is no such thing as lag on a well driven car and no need for concern of Snap oversteer if you cornering entry speed and throttle balance and gear are correct..

www.pmtrackdays.co.uk for more dates when my club is on track

[Gazboy]

I never heard a tubby owner say:

"I wish I had an n/a"

That settles that then!

[Frustrated Pilot]

LOL...

ok time for my 2p...

lets be constructive and give an amusing example.

Paul - "Geoff did you see that merc tying to overtake me whilst we were flooring it off the lights?"

Geoff - "what you mean that little grey dot next to the red dot?"

Paul - "Yes thats the one"



It only seems like its quicker because i have a good set of light weight alloys/tires and cracking suspension... AND because the engine is so loud as im revving the xxxx out of it - to keep up.

The only time I have kept up and beaten tubbies is during the following.
1. When they are not trying
2. when they have knackered suspension
3. when the owner is new to tubies and worried about the turbo lag
4. if they were parked with the engine off.

An N/A will only stand a chance round a track vs a tubby if.
1. Scumacher was behind the wheel AND
2. If it had better suspension and rubbers then the turbo AND
3. if it was raining.

Sorry m8, whoever started the post, YOU WANT to drive a tubby... then you will understand...

when it keeps pulling and puling, like a gigilo who hasnt been working for a few months , past 140 mph and it only sounds and feels like your doing 60... then you know you have power....

and m8... an n/a wont do that... (unless you have last years F1 ferrari V12 engine in... ) but me thinks it wont fit....

TIZ WHY IM BUYING A TUBBY ENGINE

[lower]

my view is that it is easier to drive an NA on the limit on a track than a turbo because the power delivery is more linear. on a feathered throttle with the turbo when you apply throttle the torque comes in very suddenly and that is what can cause you problems if you are not prepared for it. With an NA you don't get the big lump of torque.

That being said in the hands of a skilled driver the turbo is faster on the track or road, wet or dry, even though the differential would be a lot less in the dry. Neil Johnson was flying round the track in his well tuned turbo at donnington in the wet last year.

What you do have to do in a turbo is adjust your driving style so that you don't get caught off boost. That way you never see lag. It is no different from my S2000 where you have to keep the revs up 2-3000 rpm higher than you would in a normal NA or turbo car.

Just to add another 2p

For general road driving turbos are nice in that you can just waft along on the torque and you have mega mid-range power which is great for road driving.

For track NA is defo better from a driver perspective. Better adjustability on the limit, more linear power delivery, for example mid-corner you are varying throttle inputs all the time as you balance the car. Much harder to do on a turbo as you have to compensate for lag. You can get used to it but the response will never match that of an NA.

That said turbos have come a long way since the 70s and the gap is narrowed, but there is something ultimately that bit special (and thus difficult to describe) of revving the nuts off an NA, balancing the throttle at 6K+ and just snatching the next gear at 7.5K on the exit..

You can do that in a Tubby as well ...
and if you have boost set to stock Levels it behaves like a NA and people who are scared of turbos coming on song mid bend are crap drivers and in the totally wrong gear choice if there worried about it comming on power! Drive a Turbo in its rev band and at conre exits you will not have the myth that is LAG and you will be snatching 7250RPM in no time.

On most corner entrys im changing down in the breaking zone with heel toe and entering a corner at around 5-6K and balancing it on the throttle and rollign the on the power out of the corner and then snaching the next gear - exzillarating!

There is no such thing as lag on a well driven car and no need for concern of Snap oversteer if you cornering entry speed and throttle balance and gear are correct..

www.pmtrackdays.co.uk for more dates when my club is on track

[terminater2_uk]

But my dads bigger than your dad

[Lauren]

You can do that in a Tubby as well ...
and if you have boost set to stock Levels it behaves like a NA and people who are scared of turbos coming on song mid bend are crap drivers and in the totally wrong gear choice if there worried about it comming on power! Drive a Turbo in its rev band and at conre exits you will not have the myth that is LAG and you will be snatching 7250RPM in no time.

On most corner entrys im changing down in the breaking zone with heel toe and entering a corner at around 5-6K and balancing it on the throttle and rollign the on the power out of the corner and then snaching the next gear - exzillarating!

There is no such thing as lag on a well driven car and no need for concern of Snap oversteer if you cornering entry speed and throttle balance and gear are correct..

www.pmtrackdays.co.uk for more dates when my club is on track

My point was not that you can't drive a tubby quickly round a track, i know you can, i've done it.

What i was trying to say that among the serious trackday crowd, not that many choose to drive turbo'd cars. An NA with decent power ie honda'd elise or pretty much any caterham (which are all NA) is the 'weapon' of choice.

True at higher revs lag is not the issue it obviously is off boost, but if you are pushing the limits of the car you will find that your right foot tends to adjust the throttle many times between seeing the apex and exiting the corner. In effect you use your right foot to balance the attitude of the car and this necessarily requires constant adjustment. Even with the best turbo installation in the world, you still won't quite get the response you get from an NA. I even notice the difference in response between an SC and an NA though it is subtle.

[Gazboy]

You must go to different trackdays to me Lauren, the weapon of choice is usually a turbocharged Porsche on the days I go on...

[raptor95GTS]

I thought the original question was how turbos are sluggish off boost so what the heck happened to keeping on topic????

[Chris \'aka rustboy\' Amm]

I thought the original question was how turbos are sluggish off boost so what the heck happened to keeping on topic????

well then the original poster should have gone and driven a turbo car to find out instead of making a 5 page argument

the answer is there not any slower off boost than an NA and boost on a stock car comes in just about dead on 3k RPM in my rev2 turbo so it aint off boost for long!

[Frustrated Pilot]

dunno. any chance for an argument huh? just look at 'tother topics... similar scenario there im afraid

[Lauren]

You must go to different trackdays to me Lauren, the weapon of choice is usually a turbocharged Porsche on the days I go on...

Really?

You go on 'those' type of days do you?



Of the hardcore i know and see regularly, most either drive a caternail of some description or an elise.

From a purist perspective NA gets my vote. But a turbo may well be quicker but thats not my point.

[jonno]

What topic?

[jonno]

...Of the hardcore i know and see regularly, most either drive a caternail of some description or an elise.

Bah, everyone takes the easy route

[Lauren]

...Of the hardcore i know and see regularly, most either drive a caternail of some description or an elise.

Bah, everyone takes the easy route

GLOL!