20 valve engine conversion, help.

Discussion and technical advice for 84-89 AW10 & AW11 MR2. 3A-LU, 4A-GE, 4A-GZE.

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JMR_AW11
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Re: 20 valve engine conversion, help.

Post by JMR_AW11 »

PW@Woodsport wrote:
I just would like to know the weights. We've had this debate many times but you never release the weights of the engines when asked.

I'm sure you know the weights. I used your "know everything about Mr2 engine swaps" quote as a prompt for information


Of course you did :roll: .... my days of helping you are long gone, find out for yourself.



The info would have helped everyone who reads this thread. 1288 thread reads and counting...

There really is nothing sinister. I'm not exactly in a position to challenge any figures you post up. Even if someone else disagrees with your figures I'm ultimately only interested in which figures are accurate.

Isn't it time to bury any past disagreements, Paul? (please?)
JMR_AW11
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Re: 20 valve engine conversion, help.

Post by JMR_AW11 »

scomr2 wrote:
JMR_AW11 wrote:
PW@Woodsport wrote:Why should i? Is that a test?

I have all of the various engine/transmission weights with and without fluids to within 1kg. I also have various weight transfer figures post conversion, which i'd share if i thought you were genuinely interested Jeremy.

Grow up.


I'm pretty sure most of us know that. That's why I'm asking you the question Paul :?

I've noticed a pattern on this forum, Paul. You seem to be able to challenge my posts and ask me questions (which I try to answer)

But I can't seem to even ask you a basic simple question without you blowing a fuse.

I tried to ask you this once before and you gave a similar response...

I can get the weight of a 4AGE from the various info posted on web pages but I don't know if it is accurate.

eg 120kg engine and 30kg gearbox.
From your earlier post I assume the 1MZ weighs 150kg?

which i'd share if i thought you were genuinely interested

I'm an engineer, Paul. I can't help it. I like numbers. :)


Jeremy I too have noticed the same pattern when I commented on Paul's welded brake caliper mounting plates and tried to explain the risk of fatigue failure. I don't mean this disparagingly but it think it comes down to blacksmith vs. engineer. Paul is obviously very good at what he does but a lot of it is obviously 'done by eye' where perhaps you and I would immediately approach any problem by starting an excel sheet or in my case building an fea model!

I have a bike engineered car as well as an mr2 - it is both weight and rev sensitive - a passenger really blunts the performance and unless you rev it past 7500rpm it isn't that exciting. Anybody who likes TVR type performance would be disappointed with it and the MR2 but it is surprising how many people go from Tubby's back to MK1's.


Hi I don't think I've ever criticised Paul's approach to his work so if you don't mind I'll distance myself from the 'blacksmith vs engineer' bit. But for various reasons Paul doesn't respond favourably to any of my posts that are aimed at him.

I have a bike engineered car as well as an mr2 - it is both weight and rev sensitive - a passenger really blunts the performance and unless you rev it past 7500rpm it isn't that exciting. Anybody who likes TVR type performance would be disappointed with it and the MR2 but it is surprising how many people go from Tubby's back to MK1's


I can't get away from them in the first place :D

I do have a very well paid job so I really should be driving a big horny Porsche but the mk1 MR2 + 4AGE seems to be the most rewarding combo for me.
PW@Woodsport
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Re: 20 valve engine conversion, help.

Post by PW@Woodsport »

Well Scomr2 that's just about as insulting as it gets comparing me to a friggin blacksmith, that's well out of order.

This thread was about helping a guy with the pro's and cons of 20v swap advice, which i've tried to do, since then it's derailed with people having a pop, the usual suspects.

So if you don't mind i'll abstain, i've a horse to shoe this afternoon.
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Touge_AW11
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Re: 20 valve engine conversion, help.

Post by Touge_AW11 »

PW@Woodsport wrote:Well Scomr2 that's just about as insulting as it gets comparing me to a friggin blacksmith, that's well out of order.

This thread was about helping a guy with the pro's and cons of 20v swap advice, which i've tried to do, since then it's derailed with people having a pop, the usual suspects.

So if you don't mind i'll abstain, i've a horse to shoe this afternoon.


Am I missing something here? I've just sat and read all of this thread as someone else who was somewhat interested in the 20V swap. There is some useful info in here, mixed in between the c*ck measuring going on.

I don't know any of you in here, but I have to say that Paul, as the one with the reputation for building cars and the business, you're the one that's coming off the worst for being unprofessional. I'm sure that's not the case and you're just wound up, but some of us would genuinely benefit from knowing those weights. I'm not a blacksmith or an engineer, I just like cars and have finally managed to wrestle my way back into another MK1.
PW@Woodsport
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Re: 20 valve engine conversion, help.

Post by PW@Woodsport »

Do you suppose it's very professional for an engineer to call someone in the motor trade a blacksmith?

Sorry but i find that insulting, professional or not.

EDIT: I've decided to add my own personal engine/gearbox weights to this thread if it helps anyone out and yes Jeremy it is time we moved on, i presumed you were having another pop at me so if i got that wrong i apologize, hatchet buried.

4a-ge 124 kgs dry 127kgs wet
4a-gze 142 kgs dry 145 kgs wet
20v 125kgs dry 128kgs wet
3sge 138 kgs wet rev3 147kgs wet
2zz-ge 118 wet
1zz-fe 109kgs wet
1mz-fe 153kgs wet
3vz-fe 164kgs wet
2gr-fe 172kgs wet
3s-gte rev1/2 173 kgs wet
3s-gte rev3 178 kgs wet
3s-gte rev3 with st205 chargecooler 185kgs wet
1uz-fe 182 kgs wet
Audi AHC 4.2 ltr 179kgs wet
(above engines are fully laden with alternators and manifolds but not flywheels or clutches)

gze gearbox 57kgs dry 58.5kgs wet
c series gearbox 36kgs dry 37kgs wet
E153 gearbox 59 kgs dry 60.5kgs wet
S54 gearbox 54 kgs dry 55.5kgs wet
Last edited by PW@Woodsport on Sun Sep 26, 2010 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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scomr2
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Re: 20 valve engine conversion, help.

Post by scomr2 »

Sorry it was ill-judged - perhaps if you re-read your response to Jeremy where you told him to 'grow up' you might admit the same.

I didn't directly say you were a blacksmith (although I admit the implication was there) I was more trying to imply that sometimes your responses to queries related to your work are a bit aggressive.

Stupid thing is I think you are spot on with your recommendation of the 2ZZ engine and I'm tempted to go this way myself with you doing the work but I fear a difference of opinion would lead to a similar OTT response.
PW@Woodsport
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Re: 20 valve engine conversion, help.

Post by PW@Woodsport »

Ok, i take great pride in what i do, it's my entire life to be honest.... so yes i admit i can be a little defensive about it, let's move on.
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JMR_AW11
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Re: 20 valve engine conversion, help.

Post by JMR_AW11 »

Hi Paul
Thanks for the info :thumleft:

Please don't laugh but part of the reason I asked for the absolute engine weights rather than the difference was that after driving an Elise I wondered what it would be like with a 4AGE in it. I don't like the K series engine either :lol:

But the 4AGE engine is quite heavy although I didn't realise gearboxes were only 30-40kg.

and yes Jeremy it is time we moved on, i presumed you were having another pop at me so if i got that wrong i apologize, hatchet buried


Agreed :thumleft:
scomr2
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Re: 20 valve engine conversion, help.

Post by scomr2 »

I've found this pdf http://www.mr2.com/files/mr2/techinfo/R ... /2zzfe.pdf which lists the 2zz-ge mass at 120kg.

It ought to be lighter than the 4A-GE because of it's ally block and since it was also designed by Yamaha would seem to have some lineage back to the 4A-GE.

This isn't posted to contradict what Paul's quoted - I think he edited his post as I was researching mine, plus it's only 2kg different!
jimi
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Re: 20 valve engine conversion, help.

Post by jimi »

scomr2 wrote:
since it was also designed by Yamaha would seem to have some lineage back to the 4A-GE.

What makes you think Yamaha designed the 4A-GE ? because they didn't, the 4A-GE is a proprietary Toyota design :wink:
dr_wilkinson
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Re: 20 valve engine conversion, help.

Post by dr_wilkinson »

I've done the 20v silvertop conversion, so if you do go down that route, feel free to ask any questions. It was a few years ago though, so wiring loom changes have long been forgotten (I do remember someone offering a ready made loom for the conversion for a few hundred quid if you prefer to avoid the wiring).

RR power (genuine figures, no 50bhp drivetrain losses at the RR I use) was 149bhp. Personally, I preferred the SC to drive, but it's very much personal preference between the two (I've driven diesels for around 9 years, so prefer lazy torque to high-revving).

I'm very much inclined to agree with Paul on the 2zz-ge. I have an SC project sat in my garage waiting for me to do something (anything!) with it - were I to actually get round to picking up the project (highly unlikely) I would almost definitely go down the 2zz-ge route, preferably forced induction as on the Exige. Fantastic engine, lighter than the 4AGE, and really its natural successor. It will cost you plenty more than the 20v or 4AGZE though!

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scomr2
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Re: 20 valve engine conversion, help.

Post by scomr2 »

jimi wrote:
scomr2 wrote:
since it was also designed by Yamaha would seem to have some lineage back to the 4A-GE.

What makes you think Yamaha designed the 4A-GE ? because they didn't, the 4A-GE is a proprietary Toyota design :wink:


It's possibly internet folklore but there are lots of references to Yamaha having a hand in the head design and manufacture.
bwrc
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Re: 20 valve engine conversion, help.

Post by bwrc »

Probably get flamed out of existance but I seem to recall that Lotus had a hand in the initial design concept for the MR2, and the 4age engine is certainly a more refined version of Fords BDA 16 valver so perhaps Cosworth had some input also
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Lauren
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Re: 20 valve engine conversion, help.

Post by Lauren »

bwrc wrote:Probably get flamed out of existance but I seem to recall that Lotus had a hand in the initial design concept for the MR2, and the 4age engine is certainly a more refined version of Fords BDA 16 valver so perhaps Cosworth had some input also


Just to correct you here, the 4AGE has absolutely nothing to with the BDA whatsoever. It's an urban myth that was perpetuated by Richard Morgan until he went off to the god squad, never to be seen again.

Lotus I think glanced at the MR2 but no, no link really.
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Tiamat
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Re: 20 valve engine conversion, help.

Post by Tiamat »

There are no doubt similarities to the Ford engine, but to be honest if you were developing a reliable 1.6 16v engine, the chances are quite a lot of it would be very similar. It probably has similarities with 1.6 16v Honda, Nissan, Peugeot engines etc from the same time.
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Touge_AW11
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Re: 20 valve engine conversion, help.

Post by Touge_AW11 »

PW@Woodsport wrote:Do you suppose it's very professional for an engineer to call someone in the motor trade a blacksmith?


Regardless, I wouldn't expect you to bite, you have an excellent reputation to uphold. You don't want to put potential customers off based on some ridiculous internet feud. Anyway, now we've (thankfully) moved on, thanks for posting up the weights, and the info you've provided on the 20V and other potential transplant engines, very interesting reading. :thumleft:
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Re: 20 valve engine conversion, help.

Post by PW@Woodsport »

Pm'd you so it doesn't harm my reputation :roll:
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