Charge cooler

[MR2Mania]

You can set up a model in Excel and once you know a few baseline readings you can tweek your calcs and even give fairly accurate theoretical intake temps based on varying abient and boost temp conditions.

You're missing a few key things like the thermal conductivity of the different materials - something that few core manufacturers actually publish!

[Jimbob]

I didn't wanna give it all away Dino

You don't need them to publish it. If you know surface areas and volumes of material you can work it out. But that is a

Leading to

Maybe we should PM before the calculation ends up being posted in our debate

I actually hated thermodynamics at Uni but had theylet me work out those sorts of things I would have loved it. Mind you I got a 1st in it

[MR2Mania]

You need accurate temps though. You also need accurate airflow speeds. Not so straightforward, huh? But when you have this data available from a certain top level race team...

[Jimbob]

Temps aren't a problem.

How did you get airflows at the core surface?

Car in wind tunnel or pitot tubes on test track?

Nice info to have at your finger tips

[MR2Mania]

Temps aren't a problem.

How did you get airflows at the core surface?
Car in wind tunnel or pitot tubes on test track?

That's for me to know , but even an approximation based on road speed is enough to work out some reasonable calcs for a front rad. It's the data for the CC end that's more complex, and where air speed, etc, are more critical. Here, I'm lucky enough to have full technical info from Garrett for a variety of turbos (as I worked for their only approved performance centre in the UK, and we tested/developed a lot of this stuff).

Nice info to have at your finger tips

Oh yes, and I made the most of it

[MR2Mania]

Temps aren't a problem.

They are if we're talking about doing these calcs BEFORE you actually make any cores and test in the real world. This is why you need the thermal conductivity. You might be able to use a given Temp-IN, but to ge the resultant temps, you need more data.

[Jimbob]

Yeah, wires crossed Dino I'm not talking about the smae temps you think I am.

Don't worry I know how to work it out.

Give me a couple of days and I'll design a basic system if you like. No actually got too much to do on my widebody

Not tryin to be-little what you have done Dino, no doubt you have thought about it all, just saying it's not beyond the wit of man.


James

[MR2Mania]

Not tryin to be-little what you have done Dino, no doubt you have thought about it all, just saying it's not beyond the wit of man.

Forgive me mate, but it doesn't sound like that. Not considering you were asking me on the sizing of your OWN intercooler. Let's leave it at that, shall we?

[Jimbob]

Yeah that was the boot mount one. Thought you might be able to help with advising on air flows in that area as you did

Specced the top mount one myself. Well basically the biggest that would fit. I'm afraid you can't get much more technical than that in such a confined space. Guna start exploring different core configurations next.

People always get so edgy on here

I have openly said how much I praise your reasearch and help to people Dino, and thought we were having a nice debate.

Evidently not..................

[MR2Mania]

People always get so edgy on here

I have openly said how much I praise your reasearch and help to people Dino, and thought we were having a nice debate.

Evidently not..................

I *did* wonder whether I'd got it wrong, as we've spoken a fair bit (and as you say, I've been more than helpful in your own projects), but it just seemed with every point you were either:
a) trying to somehow say that such calculations were trivial (and that I was somehow trying to make them seem they were more than they actually are),
OR
b) you were trying to prove that you too know what you're doing

With regards to the first point, I have to stress that it's not just me that was involved in this project. I had some big brains (thermo and fluid dynamicists that do this kind of development at the top most level, day in day out) helping me out, and to trivialise that would be to disrespect the help they have given me, and ultimately anyone that benefits from the research and development we've been doing. I could have gone to market AGES ago, before anyone even dreamt of making a CC for the MR2, but instead I wanted to get the best possible CC out there for the job. I'm unaware of anyone that has gone to such troubles to develop any intercooling system on the market.

With regards to the second point, if this is the case, then that's all fair. After all, you're in business to sell stuff and make a living. However, it shouldn't be done at someone else's expense. Let me remind you of the discussion that yourself and Tim @ TB were having a few days ago, and how defensive you had to be to state your case.

The internet is a great thing, but lately I can't help but feel that traders are falling over themselves to knock someone for their own gain using the internet. For such relatively small profits compared to other businesses, I just can't see the logic behind this. It's not just on this forum, it's happening everywhere, and to be honest, after my experiences from working in the industry recently, I have to say that I'm inclined to just knock this all on the head and get on with developing bits for myself instead of spending time on here sharing info with people, and giving people the benefit of my experiences that have not only taken me a lot of time but also a great deal of my own personal expense. And to this day, I've yet to make a penny off IMOC or any such forum.

I'm not having a go at you, or directing this at you, before you think that. I guess I'm just getting worn out by all this back-stabbing that I've seen lately and want to get it off my chest. Life's too short for wasteing time arguing about such trivial things.

Rant over...

[jonno]

Actually I did do a large amount of heat transfer at uni, in fact 50% of the thermo module was heat transfer - you must have done an odd course not to have studied heat exchangers in thermo??

The one thing that we never did was study automotive heat exchangers though. This is where the calculations become less important since the resistive flow across the exchanger core becomes as important as its efficiency. The trick of course is to find the right balance - this requires experience and turbo knowledge as well as heat exchanger theory. I only did a BEng and I guess this combination was considered too advanced since we never touched on it!.

There are many people who work in the Intercooler/Chargecooler business that cant even calculate IC efficiency using abreviated blue peter formula. In fact the most common approach seems to be to use the largest core that will fit in the hole available. Whilst this appears to be satisfactory for most of the FMIC guys, it is less than stellar when applied to the mid engined layout of the MR2. If you use a badly sized IC but show it loads of cold air it will probably still do a fair job, use a badly sized IC and give it restricted/poor airflow and your in for trouble!.

To put things in perspective Dino has managed to juggle the figures to come up with the best compromise specifically for the MR2. Whilst everyone else was wittering on about Intercoolers being more efficient "cus thats what skylines use" and all the Jap monsters were running BMIC's, Dino took the time to think about what the UK market actually wanted and designed something to meet the requirements.

Obviously some people will want to build their own device, afterall the satisfaction of doing something yourself is half of the attraction! Dont mistake this with what Dino has done though, there is simply no comparison!.

I suspect Dino is a little annoyed (and quite understandably) after having someone say that the work he has done over the last year was little more than some fabrication and measuring the MR2 engine bay.

PS. "You can set up a model in Excel and once you know a few baseline readings you can tweek your calcs and even give fairly accurate theoretical intake temps based on varying abient and boost temp conditions. " So, thats what you did to design yours right? - No? I seem to recall the technology was something along the lines of holding it with your hand and using your experience to determine the correct inlet temps

[Jimbob]

Well there it was again Dino. Maybe we should all hang up our coats!

Seems wherever I post certain people are there to put down anything remotely Cooling related. And it also seems certain people are ready to defend others at the blink of an eyelid.

I too get fed up with constant putting down Dino? It's hard not to get caught up in it!

It really makes me happy to see articles on Ebay downpipes that cost £90, or manifolds that cost £112 delivered. I know they are crap and I know people who have bought them!

To be honest I find certain areas of this business a lot easier than others. It seems the MR2 community is hottly contested to the point of price warring and bitching.

I thought I had made clear my intentions on my last post and as you hinted from our other chats i'm not out to diss you, but praise you. I was more out to reflect what you had done than how easy it is. Everbody has different manner and it is not always easy to express your persona effectively in type. This all too often gets taken the wrong way.

Ca la vie

All we can do is kiss and make up

I'm sorry for any offense caused and wish you every sucess in your venture. I for one think it is an excellent product and have even said so on your original post about it. I even at one time poinetd out my IC could never be as good and would be a alternative for those with slightly lighter wallets.

Hope it works too. I know it won't match a CC, but thats not my aim, I'll leave that to the pro's

talking bout your CC

I have made a bit of kit for my car yet you are keen to slag it yet others are supportive, and you still refer to it as my product. It's not for sale, and it's not tested, it's my handy work on my car. I've got respect for Dino to as he's a nice bloke as well as clever.

No disrespect Jonno but not every Uni is the same, not every course is the same. Yes I did do heat exchanger theory, albeit basic.

Seems you too missed the point on MY intercooler (see above and below)

Admittedly my temp measuring method is crude but I am welding on a boss for my thermocouple so will have very accurate results then.

everyone else was wittering on about Intercoolers being more efficient "cus thats what skylines use" and all the Jap monsters were running BMIC's

Thats the fellow members that are wittering on then?

Don't think theres and argument for that Jonno, everyone will admit a CC is more efficient but to what level of power? I'm yet to see and MR2 over 350hp ish run anything but an IC, admittedly not efficiency realted but capaicty related. Hurry up and get your machine finished to shut us up cos I know it will

I had a load of xxxx written in here getting back at you but now it's not, I don't want enemies just friends (mods wheres the handshake emoticon?)

So I proclaim to all I fink Dino's CC is tops

Hope you both take this the right way.

The hand is out,


Jim

[MR2Mania]

All we can do is kiss and make up

Mate, to give you the full benefit of the doubt, and in the interest of all reading, here ya go!

Let's just put it down to me being over-zealous and reading into things too much.

I just didn't want to devalue in any way the time others have spent helping me with this project. Without them, we wouldn't have produced such a nice piece of kit that works so well. The calculations are nowhere near as easy as you made out, but let's just agree to disagree.

[Jimbob]

hmmfettsdh but what ownc :-& blkbuwoefwrnv i say i think pmwpr

[jonno]

Im just stressed, new engine builds and new kittens cause sleepless nights!

Ill get back in my box

[Mark Edwards]

I'm yet to see and MR2 over 350hp ish run anything but an IC

Are you talking FWHP or RWHP? Mine in somewhere over 380FWHP now and thats on the original system that everyone elses is based on.

[Born2Run]

I have said it before and I will say it again. Thanks to everyone who has posted on this thread. I have learnt more about CC's in a few days than since I started out in MR2's. Dino you have been more than helpful. I know you could have given me the hard sell about your system instead of giving me the info you did and for that I am grateful. No doubt I will end up with one of your systems anyway but I like a bit of a fiddle so gonna try the st205 route, swear a lot, learn a lot and then end up buying yours. Its by trying for yourself that you learn and improve. I have nothing but respect for all the guys out there who are developing and improving on standerd items but still take the time to help out those of us who dont have the knowledge but are prepared to give it a go. Its what makes this community special, despite the odd bickering.

Cheers guys

[Quigonjay]

when your running a chargecooler in the winter do you need to put in some sort of anti freeze? would have thought so

[Mark Edwards]

when your running a chargecooler in the winter do you need to put in some sort of anti freeze? would have thought so

Tis a good idea yes.

[Grajey]

Is an ST205 CC easier to fit to a REV3?

Do you need to make any brackets etc to mount the CC?

Does the CC need modifying at all to clear any bits on the MR2 block?

If I have the ST205 TB "sock" is the CC a straightforward fitment?

I am going the CC route but need my car as a daily driver so I would need to gather all the parts to fit over a long weekend.

Any advice from the "pioneers" would be greatly appreciated.

TIA