how strong is a 4agze?

[crazybrightman]

hi im looking to build a turbo lump up but im wondering what the best engine to start with is. obviously if i start with an n/a i will need to change rods, pistons and so on. i was thinking a could just start with a 4agze if its strong enough to save some cash though. the question is what sort of power will the components in a charger lump take before they need upgrading also?
cheers, neil.

[tonigmr2]

Have heard of one running 250bhp relatively comfortably with no issues...
T

[cartledge_uk]

I have heard of N/a lumps running turbos at 250bhp
Rods are the same in N/a and agze

Pistons *may* need to be changed, 200bhp on completly std internals is a regular occurance in the US


You need to do your research.

The blocks, rods, cams, heads are the same 4age to 4agze as are most of the internals, some even say the crank is the same, although some say the ze is forged.


But
sump is different (extra hole for cooler on the 4age)
Pistons and rings are different

AND thats it

but If your after a 4agze block I will have one for sale in 3-4weeks.

[kaiowas]

I'd guess it depends on what you're planning to do with regards engine management. Obviously a GZE setup is already capable of handling boost which will make it easier to get up and running, however if you're planning on junking everything and running complete aftermarket management anyway then I'd look towards starting out with a late NA engine and sticking standard SC pistons in it to lower the CR. (Pretty sure Icsononove has mentioned before that these pistons can be had relatively cheaply.)

[cartledge_uk]

I'd guess it depends on what you're planning to do with regards engine management.

Nail and head

Its the det that kills the N/a turbo's, on aftermarket ecu they see massive boost.

The uk club members are so conservitive

[Icsunonove]

The uk club members are so conservitive

Yes. If you see what people do in Australia and America it's quite amazing how much power you can get out of these little engines.

[crazybrightman]

oh another thing im guessing the gze has oil squirters for the pistons and the n/a does not?
as for the ecu side of thing am i right in think the charger setup will only run one bar boost before fuel cut? can the gze ecu be remapped and a 3bar map sensor be fitted to up this range?
im aiming for mid to high 200's just so im not rebuilding the thing every 2 minutes and as im not sure how the transmissions going to cope past that.
i just want to keep the little light and rev hapy 1600 rather than sticking a bigger lump into the car.

[cartledge_uk]

oh another thing im guessing the gze has oil squirters for the pistons and the n/a does not?

no

The 1st gen 4agze (AFM) is the same as the 2nd gen 4age internals

The 2nd gen 4agze is the same as the 3rd gen 4age internals (small port and oil squirters)

The 3rd gen 4agze is the same as the silvertop 20v bottom end, small port head. (oil squirters, etc, best engine to own)

as for the ecu side of thing am i right in think the charger setup will only run one bar boost before fuel cut? can the gze ecu be remapped and a 3bar map sensor be fitted to up this range?

nope,

The early charger set up is AFM, so boost as much as you want, the later set up (gen2 4agze onwards , with the oil squiters) is map sensor and fuel cuts at 14.7psi (I don't know this for definite, just from reading, but quite plausable)

im aiming for mid to high 200's just so im not rebuilding the thing every 2 minutes and as im not sure how the transmissions going to cope past that.

The N/a box eats itself at 250bhp

i just want to keep the little light and rev hapy 1600 rather than sticking a bigger lump into the car.

The best way

[crazybrightman]

im thinking use my current engine from my 1b (a large port im guessing?)
go with some forged rods and pistons, rebuild everything else to as new and stick some aftermarket ecu on it running sensible boost should see my target no probs with a decent turbo.
so then comes the problem of the transmission, the best paddle clutch ive seen so far is only rated to 260ft'lb which is going to be on its limits so not the best choice. then the gearbox and driveshafts what upgrades are avaliable from other models?

[cartledge_uk]

im thinking use my current engine from my 1b (a large port im guessing?)
go with some forged rods and pistons, rebuild everything else to as new and stick some aftermarket ecu on it running sensible boost should see my target no probs with a decent turbo.
so then comes the problem of the transmission, the best paddle clutch ive seen so far is only rated to 260ft'lb which is going to be on its limits so not the best choice. then the gearbox and driveshafts what upgrades are avaliable from other models?

Yep.

What kind of BHP are you aiming for? Anything under/up to 250 keep standard rods, possibly even up to 300..

BUT.....

Upgrade the rod bolts to ARP, they are the weak link.

Clutch, you can get one custom made. Or

http://www.osgiken.co.uk/racingclutches ... nname=Toyo


Helix do one
http://www.helix-autosport.com/groupn_f ... mit=Submit

And exedy do some

[Mk1Chris]

If you are uprating the internals, no point in wasting money on a GZE block. The NA block is essentially the same, and can be had for peanuts.

Heck, I just took the head off a 4age and sent the rest to the scrappy 'cos i had no space for it

[JMR_AW11]

oh another thing im guessing the gze has oil squirters for the pistons and the n/a does not?

no

The 1st gen 4agze (AFM) is the same as the 2nd gen 4age internals

The 2nd gen 4agze is the same as the 3rd gen 4age internals (small port and oil squirters)

The 3rd gen 4agze is the same as the silvertop 20v bottom end, small port head. (oil squirters, etc, best engine to own)

as for the ecu side of thing am i right in think the charger setup will only run one bar boost before fuel cut? can the gze ecu be remapped and a 3bar map sensor be fitted to up this range?

nope,

The early charger set up is AFM, so boost as much as you want, the later set up (gen2 4agze onwards , with the oil squiters) is map sensor and fuel cuts at 14.7psi (I don't know this for definite, just from reading, but quite plausable)

im aiming for mid to high 200's just so im not rebuilding the thing every 2 minutes and as im not sure how the transmissions going to cope past that.

The N/a box eats itself at 250bhp

i just want to keep the little light and rev hapy 1600 rather than sticking a bigger lump into the car.

The best way

I haven't looked through the ECU ROM code on a GZE for a while but I do remember it has an AFM limiter built into the code so once the flow hits this limit than the ECU can't meter higher flow rates.

I'm pretty sure an SC with an oversized pulley will hit the AFM limiter because I've seen datalogs from a stock SC and it wasn't that far off the limiter.

[PW@Woodsport]

Yes. If you see what people do in Australia and America it's quite amazing how much power you can get out of these little engines

........before they go bang.

Yet to hear or see any that lasted any significant length of time,reliability is a major factor with a tuned engine like this.It really isnt a simple or cheap thing to do,you will be looking at thousands of £££ to build something that will not only support 250bhp but also stay that way.

Many have tried and failed..... if it really was that simple we would have literally hundreds running about,i cant think of even a single one in the UK or even in this whole club thats successfully running a turbo on a 4a.

There are easier,cheaper and more reliable ways without adding too much weight.

If i was building a 4a turbo however id definately be upgrading rods as well as pistons,and spending as much as i could on the crank.

[feral4mr2]

some of you people need to join the toymods forum down here and read through some of the forum members rides threads.

[Icsunonove]

Hello John

I'm already a member of Toymods Oz (have been since you came over to Pom land) , very impressive stuff on there too!

[cartledge_uk]

Yes. If you see what people do in Australia and America it's quite amazing how much power you can get out of these little engines

........before they go bang.

Yet to hear or see any that lasted any significant length of time,reliability is a major factor with a tuned engine like this.It really isnt a simple or cheap thing to do,you will be looking at thousands of £££ to build something that will not only support 250bhp but also stay that way.

Not at all.

If you look at what has been done abroad, and they run everyday all day in heats far excessive of our own.

[Icsunonove]

Correct. But what I would say is that the engine needs to be in good basic condition before you start tuning it.

There are easier,cheaper and more reliable ways without adding too much weight.

A 1.5 conversion is well above what some amateur mechanics would want to attempt.

[greglebon]

I've gotta side with Paul, here.....!

Tuning a 4A to 250-300hp is right at the top end of its engineering window: the Atlantics run 250, but get rebuilt after each race....

You'll need every component to be in tip-top condition, balanced, etc....££££££££££!

But the readily-available 3SGTE STARTS with 220hp......can cheaply and easily be taken to 300-ish........

Surely this makes attempting to tune a 4A to this level a LITTLE bit pointless...?

Just my opinion......

[tonigmr2]

When I said 250bhp on a 4agze no problems I wasn't just picking a figure out of a hat. I know of a corolla twincharger with a stock 4agze running on a stock ECU with HKS fuel controller in NI (was in England until last year) - and has been dynoed at 250bhp. It's run at this for the past 7 or so years IIRC.
T

[cartledge_uk]

I've gotta side with Paul, here.....!

Tuning a 4A to 250-300hp is right at the top end of its engineering window: the Atlantics run 250, but get rebuilt after each race....

You'll need every component to be in tip-top condition, balanced, etc....££££££££££!

In the USA and aus there are 4a's pushing 300bhp realiably and 200-250 on a turbo is safe and realistic, FFS in South africa there is a 4agte build that does the 1/4 in 11.5 in a fully built up and pimped car.

When paul started 1.5's over here people put down his plans (they still do) so i'm suprised to find him and others doing the same to 4agte's when they are proven worldwide.

There is one 4agte in the south that I know of, and one being built by mk1chris and hopefully it will suprise you doubters.

And I'm hoping my charger build is cheaper than a 1.5 conversion and similar bhp/torque.