[All] [Generic] Plug 'n' play Megasquirt 2 Extra 2.0, anyone...??

[greglebon]

I'm developing a plug n play Megasquirt2 Extra V2.0, which I'm hoping will be ready in January-ish.

It is based on the very latest Extra 2.0 firmware, and will feature the latest surface-mounted v3.57 PCB.

I started this as a personal project for my AE101 S/C Mk1, but it has, erm..."developed", somewhat...!!

It seemed logical to me to proceed in this direction as the 3 ECU plugs on the AE92 / 101, Tubby and Mk2 N/A are the same.

The only (very minor) problem I have seen is that the Mk2 has 4 separate injector drivers: MS2 only has 2, so the injectors will need pairing, but this will not affect performance noticeably....

The latest code has provision for knock, launch control and has a Nitrous input.
My modifications include adding Toyota idle valve control, the 2nd VR sensor input, and, perhaps the Piece de resistance....4 coil drivers, so you can run coil-on-plug.

Resolution is 1 microsecond, and the tables are 16 x 16.

I've spent the last year learning the product, and developing the ECU to suit my needs: I reckon these may also be the needs of numerous other Mk1 / Mk2 owners..?

I am an Authorised UK reseller of Megasquirt systems, ans have sold about 30 systems, mainly on Ebay, but shortly will have a site for sales, etc..

I'm basically sounding out the potential interest in this: its obviously a new thing for me, and a lot of work, so I need to know if its worth pursuing.....?

I think the general perception of Megasquirt is a bit of a joke, and not rated at all......but I think this perception is based on stories that went round in 2001-2, when it was all new?

It has evolved rapidly in the last 4 years, and the forthcoming (2008-9)Megasquirt3 will give Motec a good run for its money.......

[rookie-racer]

forgive me for asking... what could be a silly question, but wouldnt a ms with only two injector drivers end up squirting fuel into a cylender filled with exhaust gasses, ala wasted spark, causing borewash etc?

if thats not an issue and is mappable i could be interested.


go see this site http://www.extraefi.co.uk/products.htm#extras

[luthor1]

That's what the cheaper link does isn't it? It's not fully sequential injection?

As for the megasquirt, if you provide a product that is plug-n-play, ie you plug in a convertor loom, then plug the MS straight in, install the software to a laptop and you are away - happily mapping, then you'll get interest.

If however, you want people to install EDIS-4, or start grinding teeth off their distributor wheel, or changing their coolant/knock/lambda sensors for GM parts, then people will go for a PowerFC/Link of wait for Jeremy Ross to finish his reverse engineered stock ECU where we get to map the original ECU retaining reliability and safety features via a laptop.

I've been interested in MS for years, but the way you have to jimmy it to talk to the Toyota ignition is a one-way trip which most people won't want to do.

[greglebon]

As for the megasquirt, if you provide a product that is plug-n-play, ie you plug in a convertor loom, then plug the MS straight in, install the software to a laptop and you are away - happily mapping, then you'll get interest.

Thats the plan.....!

[luthor1]

I've been supporting Jeremy with his reverse engineered ECU quite heavily, and I've got a list of 22+ people who've signed up interested in the project. The main reason for the interest is that you retain the original ECU with all it's features, yet you can hack into the maps and change the settings on the standard ECU yourself. That's the attraction.

MS won't get people interested on that level.

Also, with the Link coming in at £800 bought, fitted, and mapped you'll have to be extremely cheap. IE mapping is £250, fitting is £100 so the LINK unit itself and the loom etc is only around £450.

If you can supply the MS with loom for around the £200-300 mark so it can be fitted and mapped up for around £500-£600 you may have some interest.

Another way to generate interest is to make up a prototype, give it to someone (me for example) I will get myself to a dyno and run my car up with the stock ECU, then get it mapped with the MS. Then provide the before and after dyno plots on this forum, and I can run an identical road route of say 100 miles, before and after at the same pace, and return the mpg of the systems for comparison.

If you're interested, I can do it. I'm not interested in carving up my wiring loom or grinding teeth off distributor wheels though!

[greglebon]

Interesting..!

Basically, all this fitting and mapping lark will be redundant: all you'll need to do is unplug the OEM ECU, and plug in the MS2...job done..!

All this is dependent on what type of ignition people will want to use, however.....

As it is easy to implement coil-on-plug with my system (impossible with the stock ECU), simply by replacing the leads with COP assemblies, there appear to be high-rev advantages to the MS2 setup...?

Does the dizzy in the tubby have the 24 tooth "Ne", and a one-tooth / twin sensor (Ge1 and 2) wheel fitted?

There will defo be no grinding teeth off / fitting 36-1 wheels, etc....!

I'm fitting this to my car over the autumn / winter, along with wideband O2 (can Jeremy's ECU also do that?).

I think that a programmable OEM ECU is a bit limiting really: you're stuck with the OEM hardware functions, whereas MS2 is flexible, totally programmable and offers more options than Mr.T ever intended.....Launch control, Wideband, NOS, COP, every-tooth triggering, etc...

[luthor1]

Jeremy's mappable board can have wideband, launch, nos control etc etc no problem.

Aftermarket system won't have the facilities such as the A/C idle up valve..

dude - you are already talking about "what dizzy does it have" etc... I've been down this route, you're going to be grinding teeth, I promise you!

OEM ECU is in *no way* limiting. Jeremy's can do everything the MS does, and is *fully sequential*, has better error correction. The ECU can predict knock based on it's experiences recently and avoid future knock, something the MS *cannot* do.

EDIT: *mapping* will NOT EVER be redundant, infact Jeremy's board will come with the standard Rev2 map already on it, so it is truly plug-n-play, and you can map it perfectly at a later date. MS will require mapping *at the time of install*.

[greglebon]

Listen "dude".....grinding teeth is NOT on the agenda...!

Think about it: if the OEM ecu uses signals from the dizzy, for instance, then surely its just a matter of interpreting these signals?

The only problem with interfacing the Toyota cam signals is getting a clean enough signal from the 2nd wheel sensor.

The MS2 Extra code makes grinding redundant: the only reason grinding was necessary previously was that the particular tooth setup (24 / 4) was not supported in firmware, so people modded their dizzys to make it compatible......

I was merely asking if the "G" signal wheel was the same as mine in the Ae101......



I take it I can count you out, then...?

[luthor1]

You started out offering a plug and play solution, then you started asking questions which prove you have not got all the answers, then you tell us it won't need mapping, and now you're posts are becoming aggressive. You'll not last 5 minutes on here like that - dude.

I've been down this route, I own a megasquirt. It's a nightmare. If you've got yourself to a plug-n-play situation, proved it works (starts the car and is mappable) but you haven't!!

Lots of people have tried to make a "plug and play" MS for the 3SGTE and it's not happened - why not?

I'll plug in an MS to my car that's plug-n-play, and get it mapped up, but I'm not interested in the development in the slightest because there are a dozen better projects out there for not much money.

MS would, like I said, have to be £300max all-in, plug and play, to be in with a shout.

[JMR_AW11]

Listen "dude".....grinding teeth is NOT on the agenda...!

Think about it: if the OEM ecu uses signals from the dizzy, for instance, then surely its just a matter of interpreting these signals?

The only problem with interfacing the Toyota cam signals is getting a clean enough signal from the 2nd wheel sensor.

The MS2 Extra code makes grinding redundant: the only reason grinding was necessary previously was that the particular tooth setup (24 / 4) was not supported in firmware, so people modded their dizzys to make it compatible......

I was merely asking if the "G" signal wheel was the same as mine in the Ae101......



I take it I can count you out, then...?

It always surprised me when people started grinding teeth off the dizzy wheels to get the MS triggering to work on a Toyota. I would have thought this was a firmware issue.

So why can't the MS2 firmware be simply reprogrammed for Toyotas to use both triggers G1 and G2 like the stock ECU?

BTW I don't really want to get into a 'which ECU is better' argument as this thread is really about greglebon's project and not mine.

[greglebon]

You started out offering a plug and play solution, then you started asking questions which prove you have not got all the answers, then you tell us it won't need mapping, and now you're posts are becoming aggressive. You'll not last 5 minutes on here like that - dude.

Wooah....chill, man...!

No aggression here: I'm just dipping a speculative toe in the water...!

I think you have answered your own question, tho...why no-one has done this yet?

If everyone has previously met with this sort of response (and it is early days: I'm sure there will be more replies in the coming weeks..?), then people are gonna think "why bother?"

I'm sure that you have an early MS, as the latest ones have good specs.
I get a lot of questions on Ebay about my MS2's....(mostly from people who still think its a Maplin-esque kitchen table unit, not fit to run a lawn-mower)...there IS a lot of scepticism about it, I know...and the MS1 was fairly basic.......but I dont think you're justified in saying there are a dozen better projects out there, when you dont even know what mine will end up like......(come to think of it, nor do I, yet..! )

As I said at the start, I'm just investigating the potential market........

[dex]

I suspect the dizzy mods were done to suit the EDIS system, but this is a guess as it's been a while since I looked at the MS system and as far as I know the EDIS will only work on a 36-1 signal.

If anyone does know a way around this limitation please let me know as I'm planning on using it for my eec-iv management conversion (sorry for the slight thread hijack ).

[greglebon]

So why can't the MS2 firmware be simply reprogrammed for Toyotas to use both triggers G1 and G2 like the stock ECU?

That's correct, Jeremy: it IS a firmware issue, always was.........and now it has been programmed in...so no more grinding..!

I dont think for a minute that a MS setup will be as transparent as your programmable stock system, but when I first got MS2, my first thought was "how can this be such a problem to interface with my engine?"

I'm only doing this cos I can.......I'm sure I'll end up buying one of your Stock / programmable units for my S/C, anyway......!

[dex]

Does the dizzy in the tubby have the 24 tooth "Ne", and a one-tooth / twin sensor (Ge1 and 2) wheel fitted?

Yes, there are the NE, G1, G2 and G- signals present (not sure about the number of teeth/sensors though). One point to bear in mind is that the rev1 looms are wired differently than the rev2/3 for these signals.

[greglebon]

I suspect the dizzy mods were done to suit the EDIS system, but this is a guess as it's been a while since I looked at the MS system and as far as I know the EDIS will only work on a 36-1 signal.

Thats right, too....!

The latest MS2's have a flexible arrangement for the trigger wheel: you simply tell it how many teeth / how many missing / crank or camshaft mounted.

As there are 4 coil drivers onboard (well, on mine, anyway.. ), you dont need any external ignition module anymore...bye,bye, EDIS...never liked using Ford stuff, anyway..!

[luthor1]

I would be extremely interested in a plug-n-play MS unit, don't get me wrong. As I've maintained, give us a prototype for testing and I'll come back to the boards with Dyno plots and MPG results.

We've just seen a lot of MS threads opened because they're cheap, but the only ones I've seen over on the MS boards require a lot of messing about.

[Ryan.g]

Does the dizzy in the tubby have the 24 tooth "Ne", and a one-tooth / twin sensor (Ge1 and 2) wheel fitted?

Yes

[greglebon]

I would be extremely interested in a plug-n-play MS unit, don't get me wrong. As I've maintained, give us a prototype for testing and I'll come back to the boards with Dyno plots and MPG results.

We've just seen a lot of MS threads opened because they're cheap, but the only ones I've seen over on the MS boards require a lot of messing about.

I fully understand.....

The problem with MS previously has been that everyone has their own agendas: individuals trying to fit it to their Brand X engine, getting confused about info given to them by a guy who did such'n' such to get it to work on his Brand Y engine, etc.....

I'm dedicated to Toyota engines, which seem to be about the most troublesome to fit MS to, it appears..?

I'm trying to take the "Heath Robinson" out of MS........my finished units will actually be inside the Stock ECU case..(with a LITTLE extension, anyway..!)

I'll keep you posted with developments......

[JMR_AW11]

I would be extremely interested in a plug-n-play MS unit, don't get me wrong. As I've maintained, give us a prototype for testing and I'll come back to the boards with Dyno plots and MPG results.

We've just seen a lot of MS threads opened because they're cheap, but the only ones I've seen over on the MS boards require a lot of messing about.

I fully understand.....

The problem with MS previously has been that everyone has their own agendas: individuals trying to fit it to their Brand X engine, getting confused about info given to them by a guy who did such'n' such to get it to work on his Brand Y engine, etc.....

I'm dedicated to Toyota engines, which seem to be about the most troublesome to fit MS to, it appears..?

I'm trying to take the "Heath Robinson" out of MS........my finished units will actually be inside the Stock ECU case..(with a LITTLE extension, anyway..!)

I'll keep you posted with developments......

Would it be worth finding an ECU case from a mainstream Toyota that has the same connectors?

This would be cheaper and would prevent people destroying their OEM MR2 ECU to fit your board.

Or, why don't you just buy the OEM ECU connectors (new) and put the whole thing in a COTS box? (Commercial Off The Shelf box)

[greglebon]

Would it be worth finding an ECU case from a mainstream Toyota that has the same connectors?

This would be cheaper and would prevent people destroying their OEM MR2 ECU to fit your board.

Or, why don't you just buy the OEM ECU connectors (new) and put the whole thing in a COTS box? (Commercial Off The Shelf box)

I'm on both of these, as we speak.....!