20 valve engine conversion, help.

[Moustachio]

A healthy Impreza or Evo will simply leave the mk1 MR2 for dead on most bumpy/twisty roads. It's got better grip, better suspension, better brakes etc.

But I still don't want one (and neither do you)

Depends greatly on what suspension set-up etc or what state of tune (engine/brakes etc) either is in though. A v6/turbo/SC etc mr2 with a decent suspension/brake set up would be quicker than an un moddified/mildly breathed on Imprevo (see what I did there!) ... how do I know this, becuase I've ovetaken the likes including a standard Skyline on track. And I can assure you its down to the car not me as I'm a rubbish race/track driver .

I've also owned and driven an Impreza on road and track with slightly more power than standard but standard suspension, and it was aweful for understeer compared to a standard mr2.

Sure if it's wet, gravvelly then a car built for rallying is going to be better, but if its on decent road and similar tune I think your assumption of an Imprevo stuffing an mr2 (of similar tune) is incorrect based on my experience.

Of course a standard 25 year old mr2 is not going to get much of a look in on a much newer Imprevo...

Ultimately though they are completely different cars and hard to make comparison... but the mr2 (IMO) is much more fun to drive... Imprevo's are point and squirt, the technology/awd does most of it for you.... I much prefer the feel of a mk1 mr2 than the Impreza I owned... sure the Impreza was safer and much less likely to go spinning backwards into a hedge... but where's the fun in that!

[k10]

Well cheers to everyone for there replies. Perhaps I should have expected a rant fest as I know engine conversions always promote a lot of debate between the purists and the V6 and turbo brigade.
They are all great conversions and I don't want to debate what's better etc... What I really want to know is this, I've got £600 to spend on an engine. I can get a 20 valve silvertop for this money. I've been told that the silvertop is slightly more robust than the blacktop, although the blacktop has a few more bhp. I love the Mk1 for it's revvy nature and it's handling. I've had faster cars in a straight line, M535i's with race cams loads of E30 325i's a TVR Chimera HC etc... But I keep coming back to the Mk1 for it's bang for the buck as the yanks would say.. It's just a fun car to thrash and they are reliable and sooo cheap... Now I'm a tight wade and my wallet is rarely seen in public so I don't want to shell out £3-4K on a conversion as Paul Woods suggests... So for my £600 I can appear to get a silvertop engine box and ECU and I've changed a few engines before but don't want to get into welding engine mounts etc... I want it to be as easy as possible as I'm lazy also..So back to my questions.
It would appear with a silvertop I can get the job done for £600 notes and get 20-30 bhp more grunt and still have the 4age revving to 8000 rpm. All I need to know is is the silvertop much heavier to offset the power and handling? If so how much in Kg? This will be in a track car remember and all I want is a bit more grunt on the straights to hold off the 325's so I can eat them up in the corners...So how much extra does it weight? And do I need any other costly things to make it run like specialist wiring to make it run which I believe someone referred to in the thread?
Thanks all....

[PW@Woodsport]

It would appear with a silvertop I can get the job done for £600

I thought this meant engine supplied and fitted? If you are looking for a specialist to wire it up i'd be surprised if anyone would actually take that on without having done the rest of the conversion. I certainly wouldn't entertain wiring it.

You've had some excellent advice on this thread, go with whatever feels right for you, just don't feel too disappointed if you do go 20v and you can't feel the gain

If i had £600 to spend on a Mk1 i'd polybush it, fit celica front brakes and try to find a set of Konis/KYBs second hand, and a Mk2T rear anti roll bar, if there was any money left over i'd spend it on geo, that's doing the work yourself too. You will feel more benefit doing this than spending it on the current engine or a 20v which i can't believe is £600 supplied and fitted.

Good luck though!

[MartG]

If you're looking at doing the swap yourself, the key factor is going to be how much of the 20V wiring loom do you get with the engine ?

[k10]

Hello all again...
As I've said in my 2 original posts I can get a silvertop with ECU and gearbox and I intend to fit the engine myself but I have no idea if I need any other bits to fit and run the silvertop in the aw11? With regard to Paul Woods comments my car already has polly bushes, koni adjustable suspension , roll cage, red stuff pads, harnesses etc hence the desire to get a few more bhp. So i return to my original questions... How much more weight is the silvertop over the 4age and what else apart fromt he engine and ecu is required to transpant the silvertop into a 4age?
Thanks
K

[PW@Woodsport]

Ok you already have the bits i mentioned, brilliant , but i still think you are wasting your time and money on the 20v.

My advice would be to save up a bit more and buy a SC engine and see some gains for your money, but i think you have already decided to go 20v despite what some have said.

If you need any help with 20v stuff just ask.

[k10]

I havent made up my mind yet at all. I'm trying to get some specific information but it's proving very difficult.... The silvertop either makes another 20-30 BHP or it doesen't. The silvertop with gearbox either weigh's more than the stock 4age or it does not. If so that weight difference can be calculated in Kg. The Silvertop will either plug and play in an AW11 using the silvertop's ECU or an aftermarket ECU will be needed, eg. Emerald etc...
I was hoping that someone on here would have done the conversion and actually know the specifics above, as specifics will decide if I decide to bother with a silvertop conversion. But I just seem to be getting random comments based on speculation. Has anyone actually done the silvertop conversion and measured the power gains and weight differences before and after? And is the silvertop conversion plug and play. Becasue if it is and if is is the same weight as a stock 4age and if 20-30 more bhp is available then for £600, (if I fit myself), surely this is a worthy conversion for track use if you don't want to upset the cars handling retain the revvy 4age nature but provide 20-30 bhp more shove out of the bends and along the straights?

[Lauren]

Very few people have done 20v conversions because of the cost in relation to the relative lack of gain. So you'd need to search far and wide to find somebody who's actually done it.

I can tell you about driving one.

[PW@Woodsport]

The silvertop either makes another 20-30 BHP or it doesen't.

On paper yes, but like any old engine it could have lost 10% over the years, but the factory figure would give you that gain yes, but you could also end up with an engine making factory 16v power.

The silvertop with gearbox either weigh's more than the stock 4age or it does not

The weight difference will be negligible, within a few Kgs of each other, there will be more difference in your fuel tank level than these two engines.

The Silvertop will either plug and play in an AW11 using the silvertop's ECU or an aftermarket ECU will be needed, eg. Emerald etc...

There is no such thing as plug n play using an alien ECU to that car, it will not plug straight into the N1 connector or the M2 connector, this is what i would call "plug and play". The 20v ECU will "wire up" into an Aw11 chassis, but it needs thorough research of both the Aw11 and 20v wiring diagrams.

surely this is a worthy conversion for track use if you don't want to upset the cars handling

As has been said by 3 or 4 people including myself, adding more weight does not upset the handling, a bigger engine just adds more useable power, any weight being added is between the axles so the effects are minimal. I have a huge Audi V8 and heavy 6 speed gearbox sitting in my Mk1 and it drives handles with no upset at all apart from it trying to rip my rear tyres off.

There are folks here trying to help you make the best decision for your money, you are not getting random comments based on speculation, the views of those that have commented are based on owning/driving engine converted Mk1's with real world experience of the 20v as well. I myself do this for a living, it's my job to know everything about Mr2 engine swaps, i can assure you none of it is guesswork or speculation.

As has been said, you will be disappointed with the gains.

[Neil_turbo]

I will have my silvertop 20v forsale soon (currently in a mk1 with loom/exhaust modded etc)

drop me a pm if you are interested in the engine / a test drive before it comes out in a few weeks

[k10]

Thanks again to all who replied...

To Paul I'm aware you do this for a living and eventually you provided some useful comments and info. So and

[JMR_AW11]

I myself do this for a living, it's my job to know everything about Mr2 engine swaps, i can assure you none of it is guesswork or speculation.

Paul, out of interest could you list the weight (eg within 5kg) of

4AGE engine (with TVIS)

Std mk1 MR2 gearbox

3SGTE engine with turbo and intercooler/pipes

various bigger gearbox options

3VZ V6 engine

1MZ engine

2ZZ engine

Thanks

[PW@Woodsport]

Why should i? Is that a test?

I have all of the various engine/transmission weights with and without fluids to within 1kg. I also have various weight transfer figures post conversion, which i'd share if i thought you were genuinely interested Jeremy.

Grow up.

[JMR_AW11]

Why should i? Is that a test?

I have all of the various engine/transmission weights with and without fluids to within 1kg. I also have various weight transfer figures post conversion, which i'd share if i thought you were genuinely interested Jeremy.

Grow up.

I'm pretty sure most of us know that. That's why I'm asking you the question Paul

I've noticed a pattern on this forum, Paul. You seem to be able to challenge my posts and ask me questions (which I try to answer)

But I can't seem to even ask you a basic simple question without you blowing a fuse.

I tried to ask you this once before and you gave a similar response...

I can get the weight of a 4AGE from the various info posted on web pages but I don't know if it is accurate.

eg 120kg engine and 30kg gearbox.
From your earlier post I assume the 1MZ weighs 150kg?

which i'd share if i thought you were genuinely interested

I'm an engineer, Paul. I can't help it. I like numbers.

[cartledge_uk]

Just to add something to this conversation. Unless you mod the supercharger engine (pulley etc), its not a worthwhile swap.

145bhp and a lot of extra weight for an early 4agze

[PW@Woodsport]

Jeremy i find your questioning of what i do for a living insulting, you quote me....

I myself do this for a living, it's my job to know everything about Mr2 engine swaps, i can assure you none of it is guesswork or speculation.

Then you ask me to prove it by listing engine and gearbox weights directly under that quote, sorry but i don't have time for that sort of childishness.

You like numbers? Try some alphabetical binary

01000110 01110101 01000011 01001011 01101111 01100110 01100110

[PW@Woodsport]

Agreed Tim, it's sort of a given that the SC will be modded, pulley/ABV etc

[JMR_AW11]

Jeremy i find your questioning of what i do for a living insulting, you quote me....

I myself do this for a living, it's my job to know everything about Mr2 engine swaps, i can assure you none of it is guesswork or speculation.

Then you ask me to prove it by listing engine and gearbox weights directly under that quote, sorry but i don't have time for that sort of childishness.

You like numbers? Try some alphabetical binary

01000110 01110101 01000011 01001011 01101111 01100110 01100110

Paul, I didn't use the quote to try and get you to 'prove' anything.

I'm not questioning about your business. I really don't care about you or your business

I just would like to know the weights. We've had this debate many times but you never release the weights of the engines when asked.

I'm sure you know the weights. I used your "know everything about Mr2 engine swaps" quote as a prompt for information, not as some test of your business.

I'm not really surprised you replied with an aggressive and defensive excuse for not releasing the info (again)

01000110 01110101 01000011 01001011 01101111 01100110 01100110

That's not alphabetical binary
It's ASCII.
You've mixed up the upper and lower case but not a bad attempt

[PW@Woodsport]

I just would like to know the weights. We've had this debate many times but you never release the weights of the engines when asked.

I'm sure you know the weights. I used your "know everything about Mr2 engine swaps" quote as a prompt for information

Of course you did .... my days of helping you are long gone, find out for yourself.

[scomr2]

Why should i? Is that a test?

I have all of the various engine/transmission weights with and without fluids to within 1kg. I also have various weight transfer figures post conversion, which i'd share if i thought you were genuinely interested Jeremy.

Grow up.

I'm pretty sure most of us know that. That's why I'm asking you the question Paul

I've noticed a pattern on this forum, Paul. You seem to be able to challenge my posts and ask me questions (which I try to answer)

But I can't seem to even ask you a basic simple question without you blowing a fuse.

I tried to ask you this once before and you gave a similar response...

I can get the weight of a 4AGE from the various info posted on web pages but I don't know if it is accurate.

eg 120kg engine and 30kg gearbox.
From your earlier post I assume the 1MZ weighs 150kg?

which i'd share if i thought you were genuinely interested

I'm an engineer, Paul. I can't help it. I like numbers.

Jeremy I too have noticed the same pattern when I commented on Paul's welded brake caliper mounting plates and tried to explain the risk of fatigue failure. I don't mean this disparagingly but it think it comes down to blacksmith vs. engineer. Paul is obviously very good at what he does but a lot of it is obviously 'done by eye' where perhaps you and I would immediately approach any problem by starting an excel sheet or in my case building an fea model!

I have a bike engineered car as well as an mr2 - it is both weight and rev sensitive - a passenger really blunts the performance and unless you rev it past 7500rpm it isn't that exciting. Anybody who likes TVR type performance would be disappointed with it and the MR2 but it is surprising how many people go from Tubby's back to MK1's.