Intercooler or Chargecooler?

[Driftlimits Performance]

yeah, sit in traffic and things are going to warm up.
I defo wouldn't have a cc without a front mount rad.
And they'll be loadsa room behind your border bumper now for a massive radiator!
Get the bits you need Harry and we'll slap her on one sunday!

[V8Killer]

On a custom GT35R we maxed out the Greddy IC at around 430BHP (flywheel). Jonno is right...a biggish turbo will get you more power because it'll run at a lower psi, hence cooler intake temps whereas a smaller turbo will have to run higher boost to get the same power and heat soaking the IC in the process!

Like Jonno says, if you want reliable power on tap "all of the time", a chargecooler is the way forward, full stop.

[V8Killer]

yeah, sit in traffic and things are going to warm up.
I defo wouldn't have a cc without a front mount rad.
And they'll be loadsa room behind your border bumper now for a massive radiator!
Get the bits you need Harry and we'll slap her on one sunday!

Or integrate it with the AC system

[jimGTS]

v8killer;

whats the deal with heat soak on a cc, rr shows lots of it when doing back to back runs....ie, lots of power lost on 2rd, 3rd runs....
??

[aaronjb]

whats the deal with heat soak on a cc, rr shows lots of it when doing back to back runs....ie, lots of power lost on 2rd, 3rd runs....
??

Interesting - on the recent ROC RR day the intercooled cars (ICs at the rear of the car on the underside) got progressively lower figures on each subsequent run, while the chargecooled car got progressively higher figures on each subsequent run (that's runs one after the other without coming off the rollers)

(Only one fan, pointed at the front of the car, though it did seem loud enough to be shifting a fair amount of air)

[jimGTS]

whats the deal with heat soak on a cc, rr shows lots of it when doing back to back runs....ie, lots of power lost on 2rd, 3rd runs....
??

Interesting - on the recent ROC RR day the intercooled cars (ICs at the rear of the car on the underside) got progressively lower figures on each subsequent run, while the chargecooled car got progressively higher figures on each subsequent run (that's runs one after the other without coming off the rollers)

(Only one fan, pointed at the front of the car, though it did seem loud enough to be shifting a fair amount of air)

lol, strange, i dont have that on mine....altho im not exaclty running lots of boost or lots of power....

[jonno]

v8killer;

whats the deal with heat soak on a cc, rr shows lots of it when doing back to back runs....ie, lots of power lost on 2rd, 3rd runs....
??

An IC will heatsoak virtually immediately on a dyno because the airflow over the core is so poor. A CC however will resist the heatsoak for much longer - it will still saturate eventually becuase your putting more heat into the system than you can take out with a fan (no matter how large!).

As for why turbo cars with CC's do better after a few runs, I suspect its down to heat building in the turbo and exhaust - during the the initial runs everything on the exhaust side is cold and the exhaust gases take longer to evacuate, after a couple of runs, things get really hot and the exhaust flows much better? Just my thoughts, i have no proof on the matter but I have seen exactly the same thing on various dyno's.


Note that this isnt always the case on front mount IC's - they are always larger than our sidemounts and quite often a dyno fan is able to keep them at a reasnoble temperature.

[skinthespin]

I think Jonno is spot on here and is making alot of sense, all a cooler of any description is doing is removing heat from the charged air, the best medium to do that is through water as it has a much much higher specific heat capacity. Once that heat energy is now in the water you can control it however you want without the restrictions of engine location like on an air-air cooler, as you simply cannot get a good enough airflow over a boot/side mounted rad.

As for this myth of heat soak on RR's Jonnos explanation makes perfect sense, and I know from experience from trackdays after a very hard dry session my CC was still cool to the touch, there are downsides to CC's but the positives far outweigh those in a mid engined application, especially using an off the shelf 205 CC with its easy fit, short turbo to TB run and compact dimensions. Perfect.

[jimGTS]

i only mention that because ive only ever experienced a 1whp difference on my dyno runs one after the other......this is just my personal experience......and my highest pulls were on 2 or 3rd runs....so i never noticed any heat soak issues on my ic, and one of them dyno runs didnt even have a fan on the ic, just the front rad.

i understand what your saying, and appreciate that great explaination, ive just never seen it on mine......i have however seen cc heatsoak on the essex RR days.....hense my question.

perhaps mine doesnt cause im not running crazy 1.6bar or anything....

[Spidey]

Not fully on subject but more to do with cost/value - anyway I have ST205CC (have fans on front on manual override switch) and am getting WI to complement it for running on high-boost.

All the ST205cc kit cost me 600 euro / £400 and am getting a WI kit from US for $220 - that's about £125 ?? Not mappable like an Aquamist kit etc but you just set your WI to boost at x psi - simple but effective.

So, £525 and you've got great cooling.

Rob

[Spidey]

And fitting of CC ain't hard - takes time alright, but ain't hard (and I'm far from a mechanic ! ). A ramp makes it quicker but not a complex job.

Just get some gauge/display to keep an eye on temps (see Rory's article in KB) and you're laughing.

Rob

[Harry]

yeah, sit in traffic and things are going to warm up.
I defo wouldn't have a cc without a front mount rad.
And they'll be loadsa room behind your border bumper now for a massive radiator!
Get the bits you need Harry and we'll slap her on one sunday!

thanks luke me ole china =D>
that reason i avoided a front rad is that sie/nuttasie kindly
fitted my authentic border bumper and took eight hours.
i never want to see that bumper off ever after the sterling job
simon did.

i respect and appreciate that front rad is the ulimate set up no
questions here but review my needs here and tell me youre opinions
in relation to my tuning needs/goals?

a little background first though have run 12 degrees advance only
stock set up with an afc fuel tuner and water injection basic system
operating at boost values and went very very well.

currently will be stock ct20 turbo,apexi fc,boost at 1.27 bar up from
stock only due to 3 downpipe and apexi n1 exhaust but no boost increase
to maybe arrive approaching the 280-300bhp.

so aiming more to suspension weight reduction and aerodynamic tuning versus big power.

cooling will be a bonus with chargecooler to side mount intercooler as rad
and possibly a water injection to charge as well?

do you guys think that the addition of the c/c is still better than if it
was only the sidemount i/c.?
oh and i have a gt cover louvre which runs off the roof a bit like moslers with slotted vented louvres that extract heat out like mad.

last observation does the gt4 front engine celica have its c/c water supply
run fronm and in the engine bay itself and how efficient
are they.

[jonb-]

Personally as you're not after massive power and you're not going to track it i'd use an upgrated IC which should do more than enough cooling. That, and you'll fail without a front mounted pre rad and a charge cooler.

Don't forget, ICs are the lighter option

[Daveb]

Intercooler all the way!!!!

[greeny]

Harry,

From what I understand your going to use an intercooler in the side mount location to cool the water for a st205 CC ??

But i'm taking it the intercooler has both its flow and return at the top?

So I'm guessing that the whole water content will heat up then as its pumped round it'l just shoot in one side of the intercooler then straight out the other not cooling hardly any water?

The water in the midlle and bottom of the intercooler will hardly move??

I'm a plumber and my thinking is that u'd need a tap in the bottom of the I/C at one side and one at the top so the water has to flow through the whole core??

Maybe??????

Michael.

[raptor95GTS]

Harry,

From what I understand your going to use an intercooler in the side mount location to cool the water for a st205 CC ??

But i'm taking it the intercooler has both its flow and return at the top?

So I'm guessing that the whole water content will heat up then as its pumped round it'l just shoot in one side of the intercooler then straight out the other not cooling hardly any water?

The water in the midlle and bottom of the intercooler will hardly move??

I'm a plumber and my thinking is that u'd need a tap in the bottom of the I/C at one side and one at the top so the water has to flow through the whole core??

Maybe??????

Michael.

depends how it's routed internally though. It zig zags like a domestic water radiator or the cooling circuit on the back of your fridge

DaveB - shoosh man.

[Daveb]

DaveB - shoosh man.

Haha shoosh yourself, I wouldnt get me started again on the great intercooler/chargecooler debate!

[Scotster]

Sorry to kinda hijack here guys but with regards to setting up a chargecooler....

I'm in the middle of sorting out my front end after a wee bump but i'm planning on smoothing the whole bumper into the bodywork. In the future i fancy getting a chargecooler but obviously i wouldn't want to take the bumper off again so it was suggested to me to spend a few bob, get a cinq front rad and install it on there. Hoever, i have absolutely no idea how to do this. Is the pipework already there? Do i just remove the rad thats there just now and plug in the cinq one in its place?

Cheers for any info any of you can provide.

Scott =op

[Spidey]

Sorry to kinda hijack here guys but with regards to setting up a chargecooler....

I'm in the middle of sorting out my front end after a wee bump but i'm planning on smoothing the whole bumper into the bodywork. In the future i fancy getting a chargecooler but obviously i wouldn't want to take the bumper off again so it was suggested to me to spend a few bob, get a cinq front rad and install it on there. Hoever, i have absolutely no idea how to do this. Is the pipework already there? Do i just remove the rad thats there just now and plug in the cinq one in its place?

Cheers for any info any of you can provide.

Scott =op

A lot of people also put the pump in the front bumper - so, if you were putting in the rad, you could put in the pump as well. MikeJC has the pump in the engine bay - so, that's an option.
Also, if putting in the rad, you should get piping in place - piping is only about £20. You'd need reducers to fit piping - but once that is in place, you can run them under the car and leave hanging in engine bay - you'd have 80% of the job done.

HTH
Rob

[skinthespin]

You dont need reducers if you use a toyota pump and the right size piping, surely a reducer is a restriction.......

Im not sure your getting what Jonno is saying Jim, basically the IC heat soaks almost instantly because of there location and comparitively poor airflow on a RR, so they wont drop off because theres no where for them to drop off too, whereas a CC resisits soak for a run or two then gets progressively warmer.

And Daveb, you know your wrong.............