Nurburg Ring

Posts about trackdays and motorsport.

Moderators: IMOC Moderators, IMOC Committee Members

cg nz
Posts: 90
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2005 12:42 pm
Location: Back in UK

Re: Nurburg Ring

Post by cg nz »

Cars with 400 bhp are lapping around 8.15 and as we know a well driven tuned Evo is clos if not faster than that but other cars.... well I am not certain at all

But I think, perhaps like ou Roger, that the pleasure is in the quality of the lap itself, the feeling you get about right line, right gear, right speed, drifting safely AND coping with traffic safely and politely without disrupting the flow of the lap


You start doing laps, gett faster and then at some point stop chasing times and then you slow down and just go for the feeling of a good lap

Or at least thats how it is for some visitors to the Ring

Re camera ban, there are no marshalls AFAIK around the track other than those dealing with incidents plus couple of patrolling cars and an odd bike or two - but no static marshall that may spot filming/photography
RogH

Re: Nurburg Ring

Post by RogH »

ANYONE can drive an Evo well :wink:

I followed Alex around in his 500bhp Mikkinen EVO comfortably - and could've passed him at a couple of points.........*shrugs*

I'm not claiming to have done 8 mins laps - but just because a 4 up ring taxi is doing passenger laps in 8.15 (I think that may be one of it's faster laps- don't forget rich followed it on his first trip) and I was able to follow it through several corner in my 3.5 cylinder turbo :lol: ... well, you work it out.

I'll film my next laps.
Dave Couzens
Posts: 562
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2004 8:24 am
Location: Bristol

Re: Nurburg Ring

Post by Dave Couzens »

Well there was several laps on the last trip where nothing came past Rog - inlcuding a 460 bhp rs4 with six pot brakes, IIRC Rog let a german gt3 past and then followed it for the whole lap. Not to say that it was an expert in the porsche, but i would reckon that the laps were quicker in the s2k (altough i didn't really do any laps in the healthy mr2) :)
cg nz
Posts: 90
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2005 12:42 pm
Location: Back in UK

Re: Nurburg Ring

Post by cg nz »

Yes Rich stayed with the RingTaxi FOR THE WHOLE LAP and his Evo has 426 bhp - just the point I was making

Staying with the Ring Taxi for a few bends says what? he was slower there - you tried harder there- Ring Taxi let you catch up?

If you stayed with a 500bhp car what does that say about that car/driver - not trying/unfamiliar with track/sick enging/failing brakes - who knows why so slow allowing you to stay with them

Staying in front of another car, a faster car perhaps, is not difficult if you know the Ring and have a decent enough car - MR2 turbo/S2K - because you maintain enough speed and good line to make it difficult to pass - but you are likely to be passed on such places as Kesselchen

But the point surely is that, just because a fast car stayed behind you or you stayed behind it, is no evidence that you are driving really fast or doing an 8.15 or similar time

The only evidence of a particular time is what you see on the stopwatch/video footage of a Ring lap - not an estimated time because of delays/video faults or a longer lap on the F1 circuit although the latter shows you have fast pace around the Ring

Be careful next time you go Rog if you are going to film to show your decent pace - you will be going for it and chasing a time is a recipe for missing your turn in and hitting your apex or even something else

Stay safe and drive fast for the fun, NOT the time

Dave, you best get your speed and line right through corners before you kill yourself and before you start estimating which car or lap are faster than another

And I cannot believe that I am having discussions about the Ring on the IMOC site
BenF
Premium Member
Posts: 10764
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 4:04 pm
Location: Ipswich
Contact:

Re: Nurburg Ring

Post by BenF »

RogH wrote:Chris,

My last timed lap (not by me) was a long time ago, and was in an unhealthy MR2. I since have many more laps under the belt, and a healthy car which IMHO handles better. It's feasible but I really am not that bothered about it.....corners that I was lifting for last year - are now flat.


The reason you can take them flat as you've got 60 less bhp. If you wanted to take them all flat, you should have taken my Mk1 last year :)

I seem to remember looking at footage taken of you heading around and we worked back from time codes to a time of 8:4<cough, cough>5-ish ;)
cg nz
Posts: 90
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2005 12:42 pm
Location: Back in UK

Re: Nurburg Ring

Post by cg nz »

Ben,

I thought that the lap time calculation was with interrupted lap footage

Any calculatd time is a 'waste of time'

And a time of 8.45 is unlikely to be accurate
BenF
Premium Member
Posts: 10764
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 4:04 pm
Location: Ipswich
Contact:

Re: Nurburg Ring

Post by BenF »

Chris, at the end of the day you're right, the time doesn't matter. Rog is darned fast though, and if you asked me if he was sub 9 minutes I'd say yes :)
cg nz
Posts: 90
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2005 12:42 pm
Location: Back in UK

Re: Nurburg Ring

Post by cg nz »

As Roger has prev posted, the Ring is a power circuit - for me that means a fast time is only poss with a powerful car and that has to translate on the Ring to very high speeds on the straights and taking lots of that speed through the corners

Schoysman in a Skyline GTR is at a fantastic speed - three figures and upto 160 - for much of the lap and through the bends and he is on dvd doing 8.00-815

Thinking back to when we did laps last year I think it was, turbo MR2s were doing 9.55 laps and I believe Roger would need a significant increase in power/speed to achieve a 9.00 lap and use it into and through the corners

But he does get the red mist and do some good laps at a decent pace
BenF
Premium Member
Posts: 10764
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 4:04 pm
Location: Ipswich
Contact:

Re: Nurburg Ring

Post by BenF »

DoM did a sub 10 minute lap in a 120bhp Mk1 NA, as have various Norweigens (who also introduced you to Jagermeister I beleive!)

I've done laps in 9.30 with you sat beside me :)

But, its got to be said - the ring *isn't* about laptimes.

Its about enjoying the driving, end of story.
cg nz
Posts: 90
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2005 12:42 pm
Location: Back in UK

Re: Nurburg Ring

Post by cg nz »

I can easily believe AND expect such a time in a well driven Mk1 SC

Whatever time you did Ben, it was not with me in the car

And I think 9.30 is beyond any MR2 other than a highly tuned MR2 so I believe that it rules out your car
DoM

Re: Nurburg Ring

Post by DoM »

It wasn't in the SC Chris, it was in my old NA.. I have the vid but it's 100mb and rubbish quality and watching it again I was far closer to the limit than I should have been! I'll have another go at compressing it when I get home.

Rog is super fast and very smooth and his MR2 was well sorted for the twisty bits, I would expect him to be lapping in under 9 mins. I am no expert though!!

Anyway, as Ben said, it's about the enjoyment of driving the circuit!
cg nz
Posts: 90
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2005 12:42 pm
Location: Back in UK

Re: Nurburg Ring

Post by cg nz »

Sorry Dom I misread the post and with a well driven NA I would still expect a sub 10 lap and having passengered with you I can believe that you would do such a lap

I may be underestimating Roger's car AND I am no expert AND just my opinion but I think the power and consistent speed needed for a sub 9 lap is not poss in turbo MR2

I do not usually post about times but if subject comes up about unrealistic and fantasy times then I cannot help myself but post about them

If I have been emphasising anything when I post about the Ring I hope it comes over about just enjoying the place and not chasing a time
BenF
Premium Member
Posts: 10764
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 4:04 pm
Location: Ipswich
Contact:

Re: Nurburg Ring

Post by BenF »

cg nz wrote:I can easily believe AND expect such a time in a well driven Mk1 SC

Whatever time you did Ben, it was not with me in the car

And I think 9.30 is beyond any MR2 other than a highly tuned MR2 so I believe that it rules out your car


I'm afraid it was Chris, you're underestimating the '2.

I've got footage giving that BTG time with you chatting to me in the car. This was on the Sunday evening of the last trip we did where you were there.

A I recall it was the second of two back to back laps I did with you giving me some feedback on lines etc - this was the second lap once I was into the flow.

I can upload the video clip if you don't believe me :P
cg nz
Posts: 90
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2005 12:42 pm
Location: Back in UK

Re: Nurburg Ring

Post by cg nz »

Its unbelievable!

I can't believe it

Surely not me!

What a bad memory I must have!

What good feedback and tips you must have had!

I would like to see the footage to hear this forgetful fool in the car with you
AND enjoy the laps again

Have you got both laps and can you make them available seperately with two seperate links?

And I appear to have underestimated the '2'

I should not have done that considering I am getting familiar again with how much fun the '2' can be here in NZ
BenF
Premium Member
Posts: 10764
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 4:04 pm
Location: Ipswich
Contact:

Re: Nurburg Ring

Post by BenF »

cg nz wrote:Its unbelievable!

I can't believe it

Surely not me!

What a bad memory I must have!

What good feedback and tips you must have had!

I would like to see the footage to hear this forgetful fool in the car with you
AND enjoy the laps again

Have you got both laps and can you make them available seperately with two seperate links?

And I appear to have underestimated the '2'

I should not have done that considering I am getting familiar again with how much fun the '2' can be here in NZ


Chris, your tips as ever were helpful. As for the lap, I don't think we timed it at the time but looking at the footage once I was back home I realised it was fairly rapid.

I'll see if I can upload and encode the video clip. Its not the greatest as the low evening sun dazzles the camera a few times, but it is a pukka 9.30 lap, I've also got other laps near that too.

I'm going to really enjoy driving the Mk3 there - it feels very light in comparison to the Mk2 Turbo, this is most noticeable under braking where it stops at an incredible pace - losing 250kgs makes a very big difference! The steering is telepathic - you do have to be very precise though too.

But at the end of the day - I just enjoyed it - that's always what's most important about a trip to the Nurburgring.
djdna2000

Re: Nurburg Ring

Post by djdna2000 »

FWIW as a comparison I did the course in pretty much dead on 9 minutes in my ST205, and I'm no racing driver. That was my 12th lap overall IIRC. I know a couple of guys who have driven sub-8 minute laps, albeit in quick cars. Had to work that out from footage though as we were using the GP circuit too.

(sorry for dragging up an old thread, it just caught my eye)
cg nz
Posts: 90
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2005 12:42 pm
Location: Back in UK

ring lap times

Post by cg nz »

Around nine minutes is a decent time partic considering your laps and that it was in ST205 which is quite a hevy car

In fact the time is almost unbelievable given the facts

However you should completely discard the time as calculations from a tape of a lap including the GP circuit are useless and not comparable

You are flying down the straigh instead of turning right in front of T13 so speeds are different at same area of track thus distorting comparison and then when you leave the GP circuit to rejoin the Nordschleife you are in similar situation

Lap times are accepted by Ringers as being measured from bridge to gantry and my view is you cannot calculate times for comparison if you were held up by yellow flag/interrupted tape/used GP circuit

If its not timed/on tape as bridge to gantry then do not bother comparing times
cg nz
Posts: 90
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2005 12:42 pm
Location: Back in UK

laps on dvd

Post by cg nz »

Ben

Re your laps

As I have a slow internet connection, can you put your laps on a dvd and post them here so I can enjoy them on my dvd player?
Dave Couzens
Posts: 562
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2004 8:24 am
Location: Bristol

Re: Nurburg Ring

Post by Dave Couzens »

Chris,

You going to be making it over there in September then?
djdna2000

Re: Nurburg Ring

Post by djdna2000 »

I'm deffo going back in September, so perhaps we will see then :) I don't claim to be a fast driver though, or to know what I am doing particularly, just what the tape said. I would never go out on a lap there with the intention of timing it, that makes you take risks. I take your point about the GP circuit but as you well know, you're in 3rd gear from the corner before so it's not as if you are caning it straight from the bridge to the pit straight. In fact you will be losing a similar amount of time IMHO coming back on to the nordschleife as that's quite an unusual corner with the camber etc (I couldn't decide which gear to do it in and ended up wasting time). NB I got overtaken by a Golf TDi or something on that lap, good to be made to feel humble sometimes :D

The car has 18" wheels, full TRD SUS circuit coilovers (set to 4 front 3 rear damping) with 6kg front 5kg rear springs, strut braces, uprated rear ARB and a full lower-arm bar on the front so it's not quite a standard 205.
Post Reply

Return to “Motorsport and Trackdays”