Tradgic accident...any help would be amazing

[tonigmr2]

PERFECT THANK YOU!!!

Sorry in my comment before i meant to say the police filmed two verisons of the car going round the corner one at 40 and one at 50 and you couldnt tell the difference ( this wasnt on a closed road!! ) The police thought it was safe to drive round at 50. but they obviously didnt have the shock of a car coming the other way and didnt have to take evassive action etc..

Its amazing to read all your views and inputs..will pass them all on!

I find it laughable that they would use witnesses to say whether a car was doing 40 or 50mph - I assume it was dark and damp? So they've got x-ray vision and a built in speed camera have they? FFS.

Fight this - I hate injustice.
T

[Thailand84]

We are all doing every thing we can to fight this! it has been disgusting what the police have been doing in this case. Will keep everyone posted!

[CosmosblueMR2]

Why is it left upto you to sort all this out ?... isn;t the defence council doing anything?.. surely with teh facts that have been put up here any sane jury could see for themselves that the "test" is flawed beyond belief.

I'd say take photos of the road surface for your defence to use - maybe find out what airfield the test was done at and get photo's of that surface too.

If things are put correctly i can;t see a jury taking this "evidence" from the police seriously - there are too many holes and your /the defense should have a field day with it all.

I'm sorry to hear of your loss - my condolances to you and friends and family. Hopefully my above text will offer some moral support in the lead up to any judgement day.

good luck and hopefully the defence will do it's job with the facts you have disclosed - i can;t see they have any case to prosecute with such a joke of a "test"... Hopefully as i say the defence council will be up to the job and not roll over...

all teh best
Frank.

EDIT - ps.. maybe contact the county council for stats on accidents at that road site

[Thailand84]

Im just helping out as the defence lawyers said they couldnt come across any MR2 experts to say that you can cause loss of control from a steering input and let off of the throttle in damp conditions.
If so then this can be used as NEW EVIDENCE for an appeal. The verdict wasnt a good one and the jury were all women (no being sexist ) and they prosecutor played on emotion, and they didnt understand the tests! His lawyer unfortuneatly really didnt do his best to pick up on the points like the fact the suspension and tyres were different on both cars etc...

There was a fatality on the same road just weeks before the trial about 200yrds before where my friend had his

The surface of the road isnt good at all...they said the car travelled over 3 DIFFERENT surfaces and it cambers the wrong way. But the police said this wouldnt have been enough to cause any loss of traction. They did the tests at dunsfold aerodrome and said they found a surface SIMILAR to the road in question?!?
cheer frank!

[steve b]

why don't you just show them the youtube /top gear clip off Tiff driving round in a circle to demonstrate lift off oversteer whilst driving an MR2.

[Tiamat]

Im just helping out as the defence lawyers said they couldnt come across any MR2 experts to say that you can cause loss of control from a steering input and let off of the throttle in damp conditions.
If so then this can be used as NEW EVIDENCE for an appeal. The verdict wasnt a good one and the jury were all women (no being sexist ) and they prosecutor played on emotion, and they didnt understand the tests! His lawyer unfortuneatly really didnt do his best to pick up on the points like the fact the suspension and tyres were different on both cars etc...

There was a fatality on the same road just weeks before the trial about 200yrds before where my friend had his

The surface of the road isnt good at all...they said the car travelled over 3 DIFFERENT surfaces and it cambers the wrong way. But the police said this wouldnt have been enough to cause any loss of traction. They did the tests at dunsfold aerodrome and said they found a surface SIMILAR to the road in question?!?
cheer frank!

Then your friend's defence lawyers need a kick up the ass, any crash investigator will be able to tell you whether or not it is possible. They need to get their own expert to make his own tests to provide counter evidence. The written evidence of half a dozen MR2 owners from IMOC is going to make sod all difference. It doesn't sound to me like it was a case of the evidence being wrong but the Defence Barrister and Solicitor not doing their jobs properly. Also I am amazed that they would not object to a jury of just women, not that I have ever come across that situation before, it is an appeal point if ever I heard one. As for whether the jury understood the tests or not - doesn't matter, unfortunately you take your jury pretty much as you find them. Your friend needs to have a serious word with his defence team to determine what they are doing and why not leaving it up to a friend to try and help.

[CosmosblueMR2]

Exactly my thoughts Malcolm... as usual you put it in the best way

[Fourveesix]

Although not conclusive, these articles article adequately explain it for those ( including some police) who havent experienced lift off oversteer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lift-off_oversteer

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A1075547

http://www.ukcar.com/features/tech/hand ... eutral.htm


* Edited by Tiamat to make links work

[tonigmr2]

Very well put Malcolm, I was wondering about this.

What did the guy get btw?
T

[Thailand84]

''The written evidence of half a dozen MR2 owners from IMOC is going to make sod all difference''

The lawyers said they couldnt find any accounts of people sharing the same thing my friend did. So other peoples accounts will be a start, every little bit helps. They are changing lawyers and working for an appeal

And the police completely dismissed lift off oversteer saying there was not a chance it could have happened. in damp/wet conditions with a steering input.

The case is waiting for a sentencing. But there is a HUGE amount of mitigating factors in this case.

[Harry]

In my experience between front wheel drive(Other Toyota) v rear wheel drive(MR 2):

Front wheel drive:Traction is lost by taking foot off the throttle and or reducing power and petrol whilst near the limits whilst cornering through bends?

Rear wheel drive:Traction is maintained by taking power off the throttle whilst near the limit through a corner?
Other words here if your back starts to break out slightly you back off the juice not hit it?

Have I read this interpretation correctly?

[Negativvv]

In my experience between front wheel drive(Other Toyota) v rear wheel drive(MR 2):

Front wheel drive:Traction is lost by taking foot off the throttle and or reducing power and petrol whilst near the limits whilst cornering through bends?

Rear wheel drive:Traction is maintained by taking power off the throttle whilst near the limit through a corner?
Other words here if your back starts to break out slightly you back off the juice not hit it?

Have I read this interpretation correctly?

Dont you mean grip?

Grip=How much the tyres are sticking to the road

Traction=How much of your power your tyres are transfering into meaningful shove

Lifting on or near the limit isnt usually a good idea in most cars regardless of layout id have thought
Its probably worse on mid engined stuff now i think of it as id imagine youd get a huge pendulum effect!

[Greddy-Matt]

Most newer FWD cars are set up to understeer, so you push too hard and the nose runs wide but can be corrected by easing of the gas...

But I think in general, sharply decelerating in mid corner is going to shift weight to places it shouldnt go regardless of which axel spins the wheel...

[Harry]

Just getting my head around this then surely if the cars wheels that are 'over' spinning now through the corner say and the rear end starts coming out if one keeps the throttle down/on you are going to end up drifting/crashing? (Wet road)

Or does one apply the brakes and or power off whilst the wheels reduce overspin and gain 'grip' once again?... (MR 2 REAR-DRIVE)

[Greddy-Matt]

Well just going on my own limited experience of the MR2, Ive found, that if the back starts to slide the only way I can keep it stable is to keep the throttle steady and counter steer, the car seems to find its own way back to normality with less fuss once round the corner.

The only time I ever came right of the gas (panic lifting) when the ar$e steppend out resulted in me getting into a tank slapper

[Tiamat]

''The written evidence of half a dozen MR2 owners from IMOC is going to make sod all difference''

The lawyers said they couldnt find any accounts of people sharing the same thing my friend did. So other peoples accounts will be a start, every little bit helps. They are changing lawyers and working for an appeal

And the police completely dismissed lift off oversteer saying there was not a chance it could have happened. in damp/wet conditions with a steering input.

The case is waiting for a sentencing. But there is a HUGE amount of mitigating factors in this case.

Speaking from the experience of doing criminal law defence work. Your friend's lawyers are complete arses! Should have had the matter adjourned the moment the new evidence turned up. Should have got their own expert. Sounds like complete incompetence to me. And yes, the word of the MR2 owners would be worthless, they would all have to go to court and also give evidence to make it worthwhile, their written comments alone would not add any weigh to it.

[Hellboy]

I have a firend who had a terrible crash a year ago, which resulted in a tradgic death. He owned a 1993 MR2 turbo

A brief outline of what happened.

He was taking a blind left hand corner in a 40mph limit rural road ( reduced from a 60 not long before the crash) and had the shock of a oncoming car at speed. He took evassive action and steered to avoid it and let off the accelerator (not intentionally) causing the car to oversteer. He overcorrected the skid and it unfortuneatly hit the tree on the passenger s side, resulting in him losing his life.

How do you know any of that mate? Not trying to sound harsh but you write that as if you were driving the car at the time, your friend is not alive to tell you thats what happened it sound like your speculating the turn of events???

Im either missing something or was it the passenger that died and your friend has been done for dangerous driving?

either way a Ive spun my 2 at 6mph , by clutch kicking it it, and have spun like this on a bend in the dry like your mate did in the wet by lifting off ... watch it..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VP6jJ7bWN8M

and this looks like the type of tank slapper that caused the crash

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WlFTAMt ... rbo%20spin

[2Crooky]

His mate was driving!!! and hit the tree killing the passenger......Thats what the entire case and thread is about The driver is the one being tried as the passenger lost his life.

I know the driver well and it would not have been dangerous driving of any kind. He is a very sensible driver. Its just a terrible accident caused yet again by this country's xxxx road conditions and horrific weather

[tonigmr2]

The debate is the Police said an MR2 basically didn't do tank slappers - when they do! Every MR2 owner should be worried about that, if it ever happens to them this case could be referred to.

I realise that a few posts on a forum won't a defence make - that is why I suggested talking to someone like Patrick who a) races them and b) could provide credible evidence as a specialist witness.

T

[THE DUKE]

Yup, lost the back end badly at about 20-25 mph going through a bend in damp conditions. I had been decelerating at the time from about 30-35mph. Road surface, tyre wear, suspension setup, driver ability all come into play but it will happen to every MR2 owner at some point.

R.I.P.