replaced rear pads- but handbrake now rubbish!

[crazylegs]

Hmm,I think I will stick to your method Paul.It has worked EVERY time and worked PERFECTLY. Obviously just a coincidence!!

[lower]

paul,

as i said before, i do not want to belittle your undoubted experience, but you can get a perfectly functional handbrake by just rotating the pistons all the way back. granted, on some occasions the handbrake mechanism will not engage properly and if your method makes it work every time then as i said before then that is a very valuable piece of advice. but, if the handbrake doesn't engage properly, then a few good pumps on the the brake pedal and handbrake pushes the piston out into the correct postion and engages the handbrake mechanism, and this is something i have experienced.

however, you stated that if you do not do it your way, the handbrake will not work properly full stop and that is the statement i contest and believe is scaremongering.

anyway, i suggest we leave it at that and agree to disagree.

[JohnnyC]

Does the handbrake go rubbish only if the piston is FULLY wound back in?
If so then that could be why lower's has been fine, perhaps wound back in just enough to fit the new pads?

I think the bit that some people don't understand (me included) about the winding back out 180 degrees is that surely pressing the footbrake a few times has exactly the same effect?

Anyway, cheers for the advice Paul, I'll probably be changing my pads & discs all round in a few months time so it's all useful info =D>

[lower]

when you wind the pistons back you wind the piston back on the spiral threaded shaft that the handbrake mechanism actuates on. if you wind it all the way back and press the brake pedal it is possible for the handbrake mechanism to become disengaged from the threaded shaft as allthough you have to wind the piston back in, when the piston comes out it doesnt rotate. what pauls method does is manually force the piston into the correct position for the first application of the brakes without the risk of disengaging the handbrake mechanism. by rotating the piston 180 degress you ensure that the mechanism is engaged.

pauls method is undoubtly better as you don't run the risk of the handbrake not engaging. but if you do rotate the piston all the way back in as soon as you apply the footbrake the piston moves into the correct position but runs the risk of the handbrake mechanism not engaging properly. however, a few good pumps of the brake pedal and some hard pulls on the handbrake mechanism causes the handbrake mechanism to reenage.

Does the handbrake go rubbish only if the piston is FULLY wound back in?
If so then that could be why lower's has been fine, perhaps wound back in just enough to fit the new pads?

I think the bit that some people don't understand (me included) about the winding back out 180 degrees is that surely pressing the footbrake a few times has exactly the same effect?

Anyway, cheers for the advice Paul, I'll probably be changing my pads & discs all round in a few months time so it's all useful info =D>

[PW@Woodsport]

mate whats your problem here? you post this....

granted, on some occasions the handbrake mechanism will not engage properly and if your method makes it work every time then as i said before then that is a very valuable piece of advice

I ALREADY KNOW THIS.

Why do you think ive told everyone about winding the pistons back out 180???? Because it DOES guarantee its engaged each and every time! and yes it is a valuable piece of advice because its the ONLY way to do it.

WHY would someone just wind them back and risk it not being engaged???

As you have stated simply winding the pistons all the way back does not guarantee the h/brake will be engaged! how the hell am i scaremongering when Ian initially asked why his h/brake was crap after taking someones advice to wind them all the way back??? id call that sound advice thats bang on the button.

I dont appreciate the grilling you have put me through over the past few days,well out of order,ive been 100% right all along and ive forgotten more about mr2's than some people know....im seriously hacked off and i wish id never posted the CORRECT way to do it and just kept it to myself.

This is the last post from me on this thread i cant be bothered to reply anymore,its a closed subject....the way i described it should be done is the ONLY way to do it,end of.

[Bluebear]

Paul,

I agree with everything you said about the handbrake adjustment.

Your method works 100% because the handbrake mechanism can only push the spiral threaded shaft out a VERY small amount, by using your method of rotating the piston out, 1/2 a turn (anti-clockwise) this adjusts the ratchet inside the piston to make a perfect interference fit with the pads. (The handbrake mechanism has a VERY small adjustment range compared with the main brake mechanism).

There is no other way that the handbrake mechanism can be adjusted because :

a) The spiral shaft can't turn, its fixed, it can only move back and forwards. (Because it is slotted at the one end)
b) The piston also can't rotate when its assembled correctly. (because the back brake pad has a stop on it)
c) The handbrake mechanism is a lever that turns a shaft that has a hole drilled down one side at an angle, when this rotates it pushes a small bullet shaped shaft out, which pushes the spiral shaft out, which pushes on the pads. There is no adjustment in the handbrake lever mechanism. You move the lever and the pads move a certain amount outwards.

The only thing that can make the piston move out, is to take-up the slack for the handbrake, is to rotate the piston 1/2 a turn (anti-clockwise).
This works because inside the piston itself, is a spiral nut which sits inside a SPRING which is fixed to the piston body.
The spiral nut inside the piston sits on a ball-bearing table, this allows the spiral nut to rotate in only ONE direction, a bit like a ratchet socket tool.

I have striped my rear brake's down many times to remove the dirt that gets in to the handbrake lever bearing, to do this you need a SST which I made myself from a hollow tube and a small puller, which allow you to remove/fit the C-Clip which holds the string loaded spiral shaft and bullet and then you can pull the whole caliper apart.

You are also correct in saying that you need to back off the handbrake cable before starting to adjust the handbrake caliper mechanism.

Here's some other tips for people trying to get the handbrake working:

I use the following method to test if you handbrake is correctly adjusted, I remove both of the handbrake cable pegs (connects the handbrake cable to the caliper lever).
This ensures that the caliper handbrake lever is FULLY home and hitting the lever stop on the caliper body (Handbrake cable is not pulling on the Handbrake lever), this is VERY VERY important as your wasting your time trying to adjust the handbrake mechanism or cable adjustment if the lever is not hitting the stop.

I then adjust the handbrake cable using the adjuster (in the middle of the car), I set the handbrake cable so that I can just insert the handbrake cable pegs and Handbrake lever is FULLY home and hitting the lever stop. That's the cable setup...

Then follow Paul's method of 1/2 a turn (anti-clockwise) to take up the slack using the ratchet inside the piston to make an interference fit with the pads.

Then pull hard on the handbrake, then measure the distance between the Handbrake lever and the caliper lever stop pin, on both sides, it is also important to ensure that BOTH Handbrake lever's pull the same amount, this can be adjusted by your method of taking up the slack in the piston. Then pull on the handbrake a click at a time and check that both of rear wheels start to lockup at the same time.

Check the boots on the end of the handbrake cable are not ripped, if so replace both of them as the other one will shortly follow...
Check the shim plates on the back of the pads are not too rusty and going a bit thin (£4 a set of 4 from MrT)

I have spend many hours trying to get the Handbrake to work correctly, my car failed the MOT twice because of the handbrake was not working correctly, this was caused by the Handbrake levers were not pulling the same amount of both sides.

If anyone wants info on how to strip your caliper down, here's a great link http://www.padandwheels.com/mr2/caliper ... rears.html

I wish I have the time to do a mk1.5 conversion, you do inspire me to have ago, great stuff.
Here's Paul site http://twobrutal.co.uk/forum

Regards,

Bluebear.

[PW@Woodsport]

blue thats a very thorough description on how to work on the rear calipers properly,well worthy of adding to the KB i would have thought,well done that man.

[lower]

giving good advice is not scaremongering, and i have never said at any point that there is anything wrong with your method. in fact this whole discussion has generated some very good advice and detailed descriptions of how the handbrake mechanism works and should be added to the knowledge base. but telling people that unless they did it your way their brake will not be working properly is.

the point of your posts that i disagreed with right back at the very start is that you said that if you do not use your method then the handbrake WILL NOT WORK properly.

my point is that your method makes it work every time, but just becuase someone has used the simple winding back method does not mean that they automatically have a non functioning handbrake, which is what your posts state. some people will undoubtably have problems, but if people have used the standard wind back method and your handbrake works correctly, then there is no need to strip the brakes again and reset them using your method. the pistons will adjust to the correct position as soon as you first use the footbrake, and as long as the handbrake mechanism has engaged properly then that will self adjust too.

i sorry if you feel you've been grilled over what you posted. not my intention at all.

As you have stated simply winding the pistons all the way back does not guarantee the h/brake will be engaged! how the hell am i scaremongering when Ian initially asked why his h/brake was crap after taking someones advice to wind them all the way back??? id call that sound advice thats bang on the button.

I dont appreciate the grilling you have put me through over the past few days,well out of order,ive been 100% right all along and ive forgotten more about mr2's than some people know....im seriously hacked off and i wish id never posted the CORRECT way to do it and just kept it to myself.

[PW@Woodsport]

lower are you experimenting with class A mate?????

how many times do i have to repeat this?

THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY TO DO IT AND THATS THE WAY IVE DESCRIBED!

simple question for you....if you just wound the pistons back and just one side wasnt engaged properly....how would you know?

You have backed yourself into an embarrasing corner mate ,there is no other way to do this,who in their right mind would fit new rear pads and just hope it was right?

If doing a job properly means me saying there is only one way to do it and if thats what you call scaremongering then i give up!

[gtech]

Have to agree with Mr Woods here, as ALWAYS his advice and words of wisdom come from YEARS of experience and hands on working knowledge of the MR2, he is recognised throughout the community as someone who will give your FREE and worthy advice, and I for one would follow Pauls advice word for word on every occassion.

I dont see the reasoning behind questioning what he says, just take it as "Written In Stone"....., he is not the sort of person who would offer crap or even wrong advice.

So keep up the excellent work Paul, the majority of us are behind you.


G

[lower]

lower are you experimenting with class A mate?????

simple question for you....if you just wound the pistons back and just one side wasnt engaged properly....how would you know?

You have backed yourself into an embarrasing corner mate ,there is no other way to do this,who in their right mind would fit new rear pads and just hope it was right?

Class A? Never in my life!

How would i know? MOT check for one done the day after i changed my pads. secondly by checking the handbrake actually holds on a slope. If you could see my drive you'd realise that its quite easy to check if your handbrake is working properly.

I have not backed myself into a corner on this one at all. I'm not disputing that your way is better so lets agree that straight away. But seeing as your method has not been well known until now, mr2's have been around with the same rear calipers for 20 years now as have numerous other cars with similar design calipers, how often do you see posts from people saying their handbrake is poor or they've failed the mot on it? if it was that critical to the handbrake working properly, would it not be in the workshop manual, or more to the point, would it not be standard practice for setting up the brake pads on all cars with this type of rear hand brake.

i've not backed myself into a corner, you have.

[PW@Woodsport]

an mr2 will hold on a slope with one working caliper.....xxxx it,cant be bothered to talk about this anymore,nobody in their right mind would fit rear pads and hope the mechanism has engaged.....and as for 20 odd years and this has just come to light...well yes it has,but ive taken the time to tell you about it,last thing i expected was the spanish inquisition....just accept this is the correct way its supposed to be done or keep playing "rear caliper roulette" up to you bud.

[Bluebear]

Taken from Brakes International web site....

http://www.brakesint.co.uk/technical.html

"101: Handbrake calipers - Can’t get the handbrake to work properly"

Cause:Usually because the caliper has not been adjusted on installation or when pads have been replaced. The auto adjusting mechanism is only designed to gradually remove play as the pads wear down, not the major initial adjustment required.

Solution: Disconnect the handbrake cable, unbolt the caliper from it's guide pins and firmly force the piston back to remove any play (put slight hand pressure on the caliper lever and you'll feel the play gradually disappear - stop at this point to avoid possible damage to the adjuster mechanism).
Then depending on type of adjusting mechanism (some have a hex key adjuster screw hidden behind a bung) wind the piston out so that the gap is just slightly wide enough to fit over the pads and disc. Refit the caliper and then press the brake pedal several times to let the auto adjuster remove any fine play still remaining. Finally reconnect the handbrake cable ensuring the caliper lever to returns fully home when the handbrake lever is off.

Note: Do NOT use grips on the piston only use the correct tool!

[Kelvin]

Can I propose an end to this thread?

I think the correct method has now been proved beyond doubt (2 x independent sources) and should be placed in the Knowledge Base.

I've kept my gob shut, but I've tried both methods and Paul's (and BI's) method is the only one that works first time every time.

If we keep going round in circles Paul's never going to get that V6 finished and the end result is we may drive a very good source of free information away from the forum, or if not away, then reluctant to post advice.

Kelvin

[gtech]

here here =D>

[lower]

there is no point continuing this thread as i am NOT arguing that your method is wrong.

i will say it again as i already have done 3 or 4 times. i agree that your way is better because it guarentees that the handbrake will work first time.

what i am saying is that if people have not used pauls method and their hand brake works perfectly, they do not need to strip the brakes down and reset them just because they haven't used your method.

and lastly, an mr2 will not hold on my drive with just one caliper. you haven't seen my drive. but that is irrelevant anyway as the mot proved the handbrake was working correctly.

an mr2 will hold on a slope with one working caliper.....f&ck it,cant be bothered to talk about this anymore,nobody in their right mind would fit rear pads and hope the mechanism has engaged.....and as for 20 odd years and this has just come to light...well yes it has,but ive taken the time to tell you about it,last thing i expected was the spanish inquisition....just accept this is the correct way its supposed to be done or keep playing "rear caliper roulette" up to you bud.

[PW@Woodsport]

there is no point continuing this thread as i am NOT arguing that your method is wrong

Yet two pages ago.....

your statement that you will not get a decent rear hand brake unless you rotate out the piston 180 degrees is not correct

WTF?

Add to that your constant cross examination since i first posted about this "new" method and doubting everything ive said.....would you like me to quote you? i think you are just the sort of person who likes to tear someones new information apart,and all because you have been winding pistons back and leaving them at that for god knows how many years!

Ive no time for ignorance if someone tells me something new about an mr2 im all ears,last thing i do is give them the savaging you have!

they do not need to strip the brakes down and reset them just because they haven't used your method.

...and you think thats a professional way to do it do you? just hope they are right? Whats this stripping down? take wheel off,undo one bolt,swing caliper up,adjust piston! hardly a strip down. Theres 5 seconds extra work in winding the pistons back out 180 degrees when fitting new pads,why on earth would anyone just wind them back and just hope it was reset???? total and utter madness!!!! If they did just do it your way and one or BOTH calipers hadnt reset then one or BOTH sides would need taking apart again! and for what??? for the sake of 5-10 seconds extra piston winding??? Once again....
THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY TO DO IT PROPERLY!

I still have issue with you calling me a scaremonger,at the very LEAST id expect an apology for that,but i wont hold my breath.

Lastly if a car comes to my garage and has its brakes done i GUARANTEE it would hold on any slope on one caliper,that is unless you have just wound the pistons back and are hoping both calipers are working like you advise......there is not one single part of your posts that i understand or even want to,you say you have no problem with my method yet you continue to argue that it isnt necessary to do it my way??? you're round the bend mate.

[JJ]

Lol ! @ this post over a set of rear pads !!

Your all wrong !!

Some people need to understand if your going to do something, do it right... and yup the handbrake mechanism does need to be returned 180 degrees to its "park" position, whilst screwing the piston into the caliper - this ensures the handbrake throw from the lever gets its full travel and thus giving the travel / throw in the screwed piston to apply enough pressure to bind the pads onto the disc.

This cable actuated mechanism often seizes up on cars ( not just toyota adopts this theory of handbrake mechanism ! ) and must be thoroughly inspected and greased up - the mechanism must be "reset" for it to work to 100% efficiency.

Chucking in a set of pads and just winding the piston back is the lasy ar$ed approach which will hinder the reliability of the mechanism - sliders all need to be degreased / cleaned / polished in cases - the actual calipers needs boring in cases where the cast has expanded because of corrosion ( problematic calipers ! ) - you don't intend to change the rear pads for at least another 6k miles and in that time, the whole lot could seize up unless you've taken the corrent steps to preventative maintenance - then it become corrective maintenance where you'd need a big hammer and perhaps buy a few new components to rectify it.

In summary, woodsports approach is spot on to reset the handbrake mechanism to the original design scope - carry out the correct greasing / inspection of the caliper and reliability of the equipment will always be there.. cut corners and cost you more on the long term.

Thats the difference between someone that knows what they're doing to someone that picks up the bare procedure to what they're doing ( just changing pads ! )

[crazylegs]

come on people ,enoughs enough.the wind right in worked for you so stick to it.pauls method works for me every time so i will stick to that.
IMO it is the correct method and should be on the knowledge base,but what the heck if you want to do a job several times untill it works then feel free.you might get lucky when you come to do them and it will work first time who knows.

[terminater2_uk]

Had my brakes off last week when I changed the driveshaft. In ignorance I just wound the piston back and put it back on. Failed the MOT on Friday on poor handbrake performance.
Read this thread and went out and took them off again, wound the piston in and then back out again 180 degrees. Put it back together and a tank wouldnt shift it now with the handbrake on.
I know what I'll be doing in future