MR2 Turbo VS Honda Integra Type R???

[Si_Crewe]

No, the difference is that its more involving and more satifying when you have to work an engine to get the best out of it. Throttle response is also vitally important. There is no point bringing F1 cars into the equation.

I mentioned F1 cars because they decided it was worth the effort of developing super-duper semi-auto gearboxes with traction control to get the best out of their high-revving engines.

Personally, I find it most satisfying to arrive at my destination more quickly and it's a bonus to have used less petrol, worn the tyres less, applied less stress to the engine and not developed sweaty patches under the arms in the process.

[Lauren]

I mentioned F1 cars because they decided it was worth the effort of developing super-duper semi-auto gearboxes with traction control to get the best out of their high-revving engines.

Personally, I find it most satisfying to arrive at my destination more quickly and it's a bonus to have used less petrol, worn the tyres less, applied less stress to the engine and not developed sweaty patches under the arms in the process.

I still don't think referring to F1 cars is relevant. F1 cars are built according to regulations, exploiting what they can. This does not translate to road cars.

Personally I find it more satisfying to have to get a bit more involved with the drive (if the mood so takes me) than ride along on a wave of torque. I don't think i'd be particularly sweating from a swift drive cross country. Tbh though, on the road it all makes little odds anyway.

So are you saying you just like to cruise along then?

[pintovit]

Personally, I find it most satisfying to arrive at my destination more quickly and it's a bonus to have used less petrol, worn the tyres less, applied less stress to the engine and not developed sweaty patches under the arms in the process.

Great thread... Lovely reading...

Basically what you are saying is that you like fast means of transportation. Go from A to B fast with the least fuss as possible.

That is ok... It's your cup...

However, that to people with sport driving in mind doesn't make a lot of sense. People that like driving to the limit do so regardless if they are driving a F1 car or a Continental GT. If they are focus on making the fastest or the most sideways or whatever, they will have a patch under the arms when done because adrenaline (fun) makes you sweat - regardless of the hard work required.

That's the involvement/fun thing about driving in a trackday or motorsport. If taking it slow (to save your tires, your transmission, whatever) during the corners and "ride the wave of torque" on the straights is your thing... Fine... But I believe you're missing a lot of the fun...

[luthor1]

Thrashing the living hell out of a car for it to go slower than a tubby is, to some, not great. When the Ferrari 360 engine revs to 8500 but makes 420bhp then fine, but the *relatively* underpowered 'teg engine feels like a slog to go nowhere. It's like firing a shotgun 4 times just to slowly get to 100mph at which point progress becomes, well, leisurely.

I don't think the comments refer to NA engines, just THAT na engine.

Myself, I like NA engine power delivery, and enjoy thrashing an engine, but sometimes just squirting the throttle and pounding along is nice too.

I test drove a Civic Type-R and an Ibiza Cupra 1.8 20VT back-to-back and while the Civie handled better, the Cupra had that lag-free turbo engine, and 4-pot 310mm Brembo brakes so for me was much better to drive. The civic felt like when you moved the gearlever from 1 to 2 to 3 you weren't engaging DIFFERENT ratio's and that's just irritating.

[Lauren]

Great thread... Lovely reading...

Basically what you are saying is that you like fast means of transportation. Go from A to B fast with the least fuss as possible.

That is ok... It's your cup...

However, that to people with sport driving in mind doesn't make a lot of sense. People that like driving to the limit do so regardless if they are driving a F1 car or a Continental GT. If they are focus on making the fastest or the most sideways or whatever, they will have a patch under the arms when done because adrenaline (fun) makes you sweat - regardless of the hard work required.

That's the involvement/fun thing about driving in a trackday or motorsport. If taking it slow (to save your tires, your transmission, whatever) during the corners and "ride the wave of torque" on the straights is your thing... Fine... But I believe you're missing a lot of the fun...

DING.

[pintovit]

Agree to some extent. The definition of trashing the hell out also seams a little bit loose to me. Just because it doesn't scream, doesn't mean it isn't getting a good beat!

Of course that to the driver it feels a lot less dramatic and it doesn't seam to be trying so hard. It's just like driving the family car to church. With the turbo diesel, I can use all the torque available at 2.000, short shift late enough to keep on boost and make very good progress without everyone noticing...

Now if the car was noisier... people would start to ask: "what is the hurry for? we are not going to a funeral... are we?"...

Anyway... Love to "trash the hell" out of a car. Makes all the experience more vivid!

Now back to your reply... Of course that if it's all noise and no go (reminds me a Megane that my father had that struggled to get to red line in 3rd) it's crap... But if like the 3sge (and the Honda should be even better on this department) that keeps pulling all the way nicely in almost all gears (specially the first 3... 4th doesn't seam to make a big difference changing a little bit sooner) I do enjoy it.

Hope I didn't make it too confusing...

[GeoffC320]

The trouble is though, if you don't have to work a bit to get the most out of something there is less satisfaction in it. Therein lies the difference I think.

So that applies to power delivery but not handling then?

[Lauren]

The trouble is though, if you don't have to work a bit to get the most out of something there is less satisfaction in it. Therein lies the difference I think.

So that applies to power delivery but not handling then?

A car's handling should be intuitive and full of feel. You shouldn't have to work to drive around a car's foibles.

[luthor1]

Ah, but some people might *enjoy* doing that!

I think we may be getting somewhere

[GeoffC320]

Ah, but some people might *enjoy* doing that!

I think we may be getting somewhere

DING

[Lauren]

Ah, but some people might *enjoy* doing that!

I think we may be getting somewhere

Its a lot of fun, but i don't think its as rewarding as it could be.

[GeoffC320]

Ah, but some people might *enjoy* doing that!

I think we may be getting somewhere

Its a lot of fun, but i don't think its as rewarding as it could be.

So really, it's just different strokes for different folks then? Some people prefer driving round turbo lag to driving round a narrow power band. Some people prefer mastering a tricky car, some like to get the best out of a not-so-tricky car.

Which is 'right'? Depends entirely on the individual, it seems to me...

[Lauren]

So really, it's just different strokes for different folks then? Some people prefer driving round turbo lag to driving round a narrow power band. Some people prefer mastering a tricky car, some like to get the best out of a not-so-tricky car.

Which is 'right'? Depends entirely on the individual, it seems to me...

Yep that is about the sum of it.

[HT]

The trouble is though, if you don't have to work a bit to get the most out of something there is less satisfaction in it. Therein lies the difference I think.

So that applies to power delivery but not handling then?

A car's handling should be intuitive and full of feel. You shouldn't have to work to drive around a car's foibles.

Oh well may as well disregard the mk2 then. Just a pity the Honda is driving the wrong wheels.

[Odin_S]

Here is the sequel to the first ITRvsGlimitedvs200sx after a few mods

MUCH closer this time. i think we shud stop underestimating the NA

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 7238043896

[luthor1]

Exactly and precisely as predicted.

Can everyone now see the fundamental flaws on the Mk2 chassis? The "poorness" of the dynamics? oh, and how that bad package, and bad balance translates perfectly into bad laptimes on the track?

...oh yeah, and remember the Turbo must be waaay slower.

Can anyone spell v-i-n-d-i-c-a-t-i-o-n ?

The Mk2 is perfectly excellent, it's just that most people have driven badly put together dogs.

[Odin_S]

eheh, Glimited is so easily dismissed. Foolish

[Lauren]

Here is the sequel to the first ITRvsGlimitedvs200sx after a few mods

MUCH closer this time. i think we shud stop underestimating the NA

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 7238043896

Not a brillliant example though is it? The ITR was obviously held up by the 200SX barge. Its easy to keep ahead if the two behind you are having a bit of a battle because it slows them down.

I've got a vid of an ITR beating a mk2 turbo, interesting that it hasn't been posted.

[luthor1]

Here is the sequel to the first ITRvsGlimitedvs200sx after a few mods

MUCH closer this time. i think we shud stop underestimating the NA

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 7238043896

Not a brillliant example though is it? The ITR was obviously held up by the 200SX barge. Its easy to keep ahead if the two behind you are having a bit of a battle because it slows them down.

I've got a vid of an ITR beating a mk2 turbo, interesting that it hasn't been posted.

It's about the most simple and basic test you can do. 3 laps, go on the green lights, finish at the chequered flag.

It's called a RACE.

The result is the result, there is no point whining and moaning about it, the reason the ITR was 'stuck' as you say, was because of it's attricious traction off the line, hardly the fault of the other 2 which had "better" traction off the line is it?

The post is entitled ....turbo -vs- ITR.... and we have seen a sub 200bhp mk2 lap within 0.3 secs.

I think we can put this one to bed now, with 245ps (241bhp) the Turbo would be much faster than the ITR. Case closed.

[Lauren]

I think we can put this one to bed now, with 245ps (241bhp) the Turbo would be much faster than the ITR. Case closed.

If that was the case why did the ITR beat the turbo?

Going by your logic it must surely be faster then?