[Mk2] [Generic] The Truth about seals...

Anything and everything to do with mechanical issues with your Mk2

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Rev1Richie
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[Mk2] [Generic] The Truth about seals...

Post by Rev1Richie »

Hi there, just having bought a T-Bar version (my last was a Tin Top) i seem to have that dreaded problem of leaky seals, After reading some posts etc and looking at the cling film method, i started to wonder what exactly IS the problem, Is it just a case of the rubber seal breaking down, solidifying or what. My leak seems to emanate from the join between them

Image

Looks like some previous repair is evident

Image

So are we just fixing the problem without trying to get at the root cause.

I'm going to look at this properly over this weekend so may have some ideas.

Rich
TbarSAN
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Re: [Mk2] [Generic] The Truth about seals...

Post by TbarSAN »

Good luck to getting to the root of your problem :thumleft:

I went from a tin-top to the t-bar as well :wink:

I think age has gotten to the rubber seals and just not as 'plump' anymore.Also,taking the glass off in the summer will age the rubbers prematurely :-k

I shall be doing the 'washers in the brackets' method very soon...
platmatt8
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Re: [Mk2] [Generic] The Truth about seals...

Post by platmatt8 »

Good luck, i`ve tried everthing.

I had a 10year old uk rev5 that had this problem surely a seal like this should have lasted more than 10years as the part isnt exactly cheap to replace :evil:
10thanni
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More troubles

Post by 10thanni »

I have just replaced the seals and adjusted the window...still not flush and leaking...arghh...maybe I will have to replace the T Bar glass? Help!!! :-k
phipck
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Re: [Mk2] [Generic] The Truth about seals...

Post by phipck »

there are many supposed fixes that poeple use, concentric runners, the clingfilm method which has been used in the photos at the top of this thread. But the one that worked best for me was the realisation while the car was stripped that the locating rings for the t-bar glass are attached to a bracket that could be "washer spaced". this gave a small but definitive improvement in my leak situation.

essentialy what i got from this was that the seals indeed loose their plumpness and the locating rings hold the glass in a possition rather than applying downward pressure. If you increase this downward pressure just a fraction you return to leak free again.
Rev1Richie
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Re: [Mk2] [Generic] The Truth about seals...

Post by Rev1Richie »

Thanks guys, nice to know i'm not the only one with problems,

perhaps someone could tell me, in my 2nd picture, it shows the larger tube with a cut straight though it, or so it seems. The water is coming out of the tube, so..any ideas how the water gets in here?

Thanks

Rich
raptor95GTS
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Re: [Mk2] [Generic] The Truth about seals...

Post by raptor95GTS »

having tried all the methods mentioned above plus rejuvenating spray (which worked okish for a while) I found
the silicon / clingfilm worked well for a couple of years but is a bit messy on the seals and doesn't peel off so easy when it's time to redo
moving the mounting lugs on the car - nothing obvious shows - it's real subtle and seems to be working very well

http://awpish.co.uk/motor/tubby/tBarLeak.html
http://awpish.co.uk/motor/tubby/tBarGuides.html <- i must update that for the fail
http://awpish.co.uk/motor/tubby/tBarGuides2.html
Rev1Richie
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Re: [Mk2] [Generic] The Truth about seals...

Post by Rev1Richie »

phipck wrote:....

essentialy what i got from this was that the seals indeed loose their plumpness and the locating rings hold the glass in a possition rather than applying downward pressure. If you increase this downward pressure just a fraction you return to leak free again.


Hi, sorry its been a while, Been to Vegas to get married by Elvis..

Phipck, are you're saying that applying more pressure down on the t-bar will fix the leak, i would have thought that more sideways pressure is needed so the seal between glass and rubber is greater.
Let me know what you think

Cheers,
phipck
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Re: [Mk2] [Generic] The Truth about seals...

Post by phipck »

the seals are not a straight vertical split where, as you suggest, more downward force would have no effect. They are actually at a slight angle, where the two mating faces do indeed press against eachother more with increased pressure.

after checking the glass alignment this did stop the leak for me, but the seals are still 18 years old and will need replacing at some point
Turbolad
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Re: [Mk2] [Generic] The Truth about seals...

Post by Turbolad »

have to +1 for the washer spacer method, the ones I used were about 2mm thick, and has stopped literal floods of water appearing on the seats
Rev1Richie
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Re: [Mk2] [Generic] The Truth about seals...

Post by Rev1Richie »

Guys, thanks

Have you got a picture of what it is you actually did, you know "a picture paints a ....." you get the picture...

I've got a couple of sealing strips from B&Q, on is a small "P" section, the other is a large sealing strip from a door draft excluder, I'll post some pics and see what happens. But if it can be stopped with some washers i'll go for that.

Phipck, you said in your post that the glass is in a fixed position, is that the T-Bar glass? so when the seals loose their plumpness there is a gap for the water, is this gap at the top of the door window glass or the side, i assume its at the top as increasing downward force would move the side of the seal down thus increasing a gap.

I think i'm going round in circles here, does anyone have a cross section of whats going on from original design through seals losing plumpness to the fix, if so i would be very grateful.

Thanks

Rich
phipck
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Re: [Mk2] [Generic] The Truth about seals...

Post by phipck »

i havent got any pictures at work, but will search when i get home.

the gap im discribing is with the tbar, the point you photographed. so for a moment imagine theres no window and take a look at the point by the windscreen where windscreen rubber meets t-bar rubber along the door glass seal line.

Imagine that theres no rubber around the tbar, just the glass and no rubber on the windscreen side, just the mounting points. There is a bracket on the main body of the car with a plastic guide hole in it and on the tbar there is an extending pin which fills that guide hole when the tbar glass is locked in place.

when the car is new the rubber that fills the gap between glass and car body is plump and seals beautifuly. but over time retracts a little, but the t-bar glass stays in the same reletive position because of its plastic guide. this allows capilary action for water between the rubber surfaces and gather at the lowest point.....which is on the inside of the car. this happens both at the front rubber - to - rubber joint and also the rear rubber-to-rubber joint.

spacing the bracket with just one washer on each of its mounting bolts will move the bracket and plastic guide further into the car by a small but significant amount. this in effect counteracts the retraction of the rubber. closing the gap and removing the capilary action.

so i would remove all that silicone, see what the t-bar seating height is (it looks high at the moment) then try washers on the brackets.

second to this you will need to ensure that your door glass itself is gentle but evenly pulled up to the rubber all the way round the mating surface.
Rev1Richie
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Re: [Mk2] [Generic] The Truth about seals...

Post by Rev1Richie »

Hi, i think i see what you mean. i've read all the suggested fixes but i've not seen this one

http://www.mr2.com/forums/na-5s-fe-3s-g ... works.html

Looks interesting. I'll give it a go and let you know

Rich
phipck
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Re: [Mk2] [Generic] The Truth about seals...

Post by phipck »

freakin awsome idea, simple and possibly effective. I shall too give it a go when i find a cable of the correct guage. I dont have a perfect seal on the b pillar so i might adjust my door glass and give this a go!
mikey2
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Re: [Mk2] [Generic] The Truth about seals...

Post by mikey2 »

i had a problem with the t bars sealing, i siliconed the whole lot and it still leaked!!
in the end i found that the bolt that fixes the seals on the car down had worm through and the water was leaking in from there.
i took off the a pillar trim, underneath at the top is the bolt, i took it out, lifted the trim and siliconed around that, that sorted the leak.
I still needed to silicone around the normal areas too though.
Rev1Richie
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Re: [Mk2] [Generic] The Truth about seals...

Post by Rev1Richie »

Cheers for that mikey, we'll put that one in the bag marked "ideas when all else has failed and you are tearing what little hair you have left, out!."

Well done

we've got a few in the bag already, if anyone has any other ideas, let me know,

Rich

btw, i got some std 3 core round flex and placed it where shown. Bet it wont rain for ages!!!
mikey2
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Re: [Mk2] [Generic] The Truth about seals...

Post by mikey2 »

Have a quick look, take the a piller trim off, at the top you will see the bolt, stick a bit of tissue around it, pour plenty of water over the roof and have a look, thats what i did.
Rev1Richie
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Re: [Mk2] [Generic] The Truth about seals...

Post by Rev1Richie »

cheers , i'll give it a try, would that be responsible for ingress of water from the top of the glass onto the seat?

Rch
mikey2
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Re: [Mk2] [Generic] The Truth about seals...

Post by mikey2 »

probably not, i did the whole lot at once, but then i had water under the dash, which i am pretty sure came from there.
THe water on the seat is from the bits you pictured, just re silicone those bits and create a better channel for the water, i havent got any pics to show you what i did.
RST
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Re: [Mk2] [Generic] The Truth about seals...

Post by RST »

I think to answer your original question I haven't seen any Targa style roofed car so far without some kind of leak complaint -some cars have leaky sunroofs also. To expect the same sealing capacity on any foamed rubber seal after 10-20years + (probably never fed with rubber feed either) is asking a bit in my mind. Allot of the stuff posted is fixes rather than a cure. The proper fix is to replace the seals -but sure, there's a cost involved. It's not a guaranteed cure but better than "fixes" for me. I fitted new seals as mine had had so many botches they just looked and performed crap. I have a very minor drip every occasional now and again in really bad rain -but not from the T-Bars and not anything more than any other car I've had with frameless doors.
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