Charge cooler

[Andy F]

Dino
I tried both, with dump, without dump, and to be honest the car always ran better with the DV, having said that it was mapped with!!
It does make a very weird noise when you back off.

Mate, can you humour me and try this out again when she's up and running again, and fully mapped? Maybe let me have a go myself in your car, to make sure (I have to think of SOME excuse to get behind the wheel! ).

LOL
Yes mate your on!!
But should i get the car mapped with or without?????

[Jimbob]

Hmmm, Also good logic Dino

Just best to suck it an see I suppose

My mates ST205 CC does get very hot when stationary or idling. Well probably 50-60'C. Once the water exits and is replaced it is instantly quenched.

I just feel there is a potential for water to go round and round gathering heat and losing out compared to a hold and surge technique that the GT4 uses.

The other thing is my mates GT4 engine gets steamingly hot! As hot as mine I would say! Certainly gets a heat haze out of the bonnet vent.

I won't argue or say your wrong Dino, as no-one has done more research than you (well not on imoc maybe).

I'm fiddling with a little CC setup of my own currently Should be finished for some August heatwave weather and some testing. Again it'll be for my car and not a production item (in the short term at least ).

[Born2Run]

As I said at the start of this post, my reasoning behind using a CC would be temp control given the high summer temps of the area I am going to live in. I have to agree with Dino's logic regarding the pump running constantly and thats probably the route I will take, assuming I can find a good enough pump. I am so glad I started this thread, lol. Learnt more in 2 days than I have in the past ** years.

[MR2Mania]

LOL
Yes mate your on!!

Everyone! You're ALL witnesses!! Andy said I could drive his car!!

But should i get the car mapped with or without?????

Is Fraser mapping it again, mate? If so, speak to him and see what he says (it was him that advised Ian Ashton to run without a BOV). It shouldn't make a difference to the mapping, but get Fraser to confirm.

[MR2Mania]

My mates ST205 CC does get very hot when stationary or idling. Well probably 50-60'C. Once the water exits and is replaced it is instantly quenched.

I just feel there is a potential for water to go round and round gathering heat and losing out compared to a hold and surge technique that the GT4 uses.

That's the thing, mate. On a day when ambient temps were 32-33C, my temps when sitting in heavy traffic (bearly moving!) were a PEAK of 48C. As soon as I started moving again, they came down a few degrees (between 40-45C). You can't ask for more than that in those kind of ambient conditions (see Ryan's post about his temps with a front mount Air-Air).

[Quigonjay]

is having a couple of fans on the back of the front pre rad just a ridiculous idea? not heard anyone mention it yet
heres another ridiculous idea - normal front mount pre rad then going in to a 2nd cc rad in the stock location as in JJ's car with 2 fans for when not moving - added benifit of more water in the system, ridiculous or not?

[Pitcher]

Here the kit i mentioned earlier, they now have one on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... Track=true

I am guessing that the throttle body will not fit a rev1/2 can any one confirm this or has it not been tried?

[Quigonjay]

while we are on the subject - is there an ideal speed at which the water should be pumped round in a cc system? or is faster/slower than standard rate better?

Jay

[MR2Mania]

is having a couple of fans on the back of the front pre rad just a ridiculous idea? not heard anyone mention it yet
heres another ridiculous idea - normal front mount pre rad then going in to a 2nd cc rad in the stock location as in JJ's car with 2 fans for when not moving - added benifit of more water in the system, ridiculous or not?

You could trigger the big radiator fans at the front, thus not needing extra fans (you'd struggle to put them anywhere, anyway, unless you did away with the AC condenser, and even then, that wouldn't give you enough space IMHO). The fans already trigger for the coolant system anyway, but I guess you could bypass them and have them on for longer.

There's a good argument for having as much water in the system as possible to avoid heat soak, but if the system is already a 1:1 (ie you take out as much heat as you put in!) then any extra weight is just losing you performance for no gain in weight. Also, the stock IC is pretty useless as any kind of water rad, so if you were going to fit another rad in the engine bay, you'd be better off making a bespoke one again.

Judging from the temps I'm getting, I personally don't think it's worth it having an extra rad. Triggering the fans may be a viable option, but to be honest, even this seems to work ok on my car.

The test will be when Neil or myself take our cars on a track day and see what the temps are like then. I've got a feeling that Neil will beat me to it though!

[Jimbob]

To be honest Dino the CC is definately the way to go, especially with an MR2. It's not possible to dispute it's ability or effectiveness. Just not cheap and not always straight forward (especially when 6 bolts shear off on front bumper removal ) the front mount pre-rad is the thing that put me of most about a CC. I heard someone talking once about overheating issues?

There must be some effect on cooling by sticking an extra rad up front? You have to cool water which will be picking up heat from a 90'c+ inlet charge and dissipating it through this core. The heats removal route is into the air before it travels over the radiator.

I was very interested in Marks pre-rad cooling effects. I heard rumour of some pretty high times on day one (secrets safe with me mark ) although the squirt of CO2 did the trick . Theres definately room for some improvements in hot summers day cooling. I think some form of evaporative cooling like a water spray bar will do the trick nicely. I know mike wrights got some tricks up his sleeve with that

One half of me says do a CC, especially as my mate is ditching his ST205 CC in favour of an air-air and its up for grabs, the other half says stick with air-air and make a wicked alternative...........maybe i'll do both!

Anyway thats my knowledge pretty much exhausted so I better leave it up to the experts.


James

[MR2Mania]

To be honest Dino the CC is definately the way to go, especially with an MR2. It's not possible to dispute it's ability or effectiveness. Just not cheap and not always straight forward (especially when 6 bolts shear off on front bumper removal ) the front mount pre-rad is the thing that put me of most about a CC. I heard someone talking once about overheating issues?

That could be anything, for example a marginal coolant system on that car. It defo was not the CC's pre-rad at fault.

Agreed, though, the front bumper is NOT the easiest thing to take off, especially if it's not been taken off before and it's had a few knocks at the front (whether visible or not). My main problem was getting the damn fogs out!

There must be some effect on cooling by sticking an extra rad up front? You have to cool water which will be picking up heat from a 90'c+ inlet charge and dissipating it through this core. The heats removal route is into the air before it travels over the radiator.

Ah, well, this is where the extensive data logging I've been doing can answer your scepticism! This is the whole thing about water as a medium for cooling. It's SO much better than air at absorbing heat! Trust me, I've used coolant sensors going in and out of the rad, and the temps I've measured there are NOWHERE near as much as you think, because even though the temps in the CC can sometimes greatly exceed 100C (I've actually peaked out the sensor on the compressor side, and it's meant to read to 150C!!!), it doesn't mean that the water temp is raised by more than a few degrees. So when the pre-rad is cooled by air flowing over it, the air coming out the back of the pre-rad is nowhere near as hot as the air surrounding either the AC condenser or the coolant rad.

I was very interested in Marks pre-rad cooling effects. I heard rumour of some pretty high times on day one (secrets safe with me mark ) although the squirt of CO2 did the trick . Theres definately room for some improvements in hot summers day cooling. I think some form of evaporative cooling like a water spray bar will do the trick nicely. I know mike wrights got some tricks up his sleeve with that

I don't know what Mark's issues were, but I can guarantee you that I've NEVER seen as low temps in ALL running conditions as I'm seeing now with the current setup (MR2 Mania pre-rad, pump and ST205CC). I expect them to get a little better even when I have the full system on one car, but for now the CC has to go on Neil's car to see what it can unlock power-wise.

You're right though, mate, a CC is complex in comparison to a any Air-Air IC. There are more points of failure on a CC system, which is why everything has to be done just right. That's why I'm spending so long in testing everything first. I don't want people who buy my kit to have problems. I'm dealing with the headaches now so that none of you have to!

[Born2Run]

Pitcher, saw that on ebay. Put a bid in but reserve not met. He is a breaker. There are probably a few more around.
I must admit the problem of overheating with the pre rad in front of the stock rad did cross my mind. Wondered about trying one of the bigger spal fans in place of the stock cooling fan. Will almost certainly install engine lid fans and remove the stock ic and make up some sort of mounting to take a spal fan where the ic goes. Anything to keep the engine compartment cool.

[MR2Mania]

I must admit the problem of overheating with the pre rad in front of the stock rad did cross my mind. Wondered about trying one of the bigger spal fans in place of the stock cooling fan.

You need not worry about this, mate, unless your coolant system is already marginal. I have seen a few early Mk2s that had REALLY gummed up front rads, so if you're concerned, I spent the time checking your coolant system first. Give it a good flush, and take the bleed taps off the rad to look for any signs of gumming up. Be careful not to lose or crush the little o-rings though (maybe worthwhile replacing these if they're not in good nick).

When sitting in traffic in these high ambient temps, and then flooring it away and giving it some boost, the coolant temps never had an issue at all.

Don't worry about the coolant fans (there are 2), they more than capable.

Will almost certainly install engine lid fans and remove the stock ic and make up some sort of mounting to take a spal fan where the ic goes. Anything to keep the engine compartment cool.

Take the stock IC out, but leave the shroud in place to direct the incoming air in better. Maybe make a plate to fit the shroud inside the engine bay, and wire it up to the stock IC fan wiring. If you know what you're doing electrically, you might try and "con" the engine bay temp sensor to trigger the fan at a cooler temp, too!

[Quigonjay]

while we are on the subject - is there an ideal speed at which the water should be pumped round in a cc system? or is faster/slower than standard rate better?

Jay

just checking you hadnt missed this dino?

[MR2Mania]

while we are on the subject - is there an ideal speed at which the water should be pumped round in a cc system? or is faster/slower than standard rate better?

Jay

just checking you hadnt missed this dino?

No, I didn't miss it mate. I just chose to ignore it, as that would help one of my competitors greatly!

Having said that, there's no easy answer really. As someone said, you want it to be fast enough not to heat soak, yet not TOO fast so that the water doesn't absorb some heat. We've done a LOT of number crunching to arrive at our choices, and that's why I kinda guard that info.

Basically, you have to design all the parts of a system to work together. The better you do this, the more effective it will be at cooling!

[Quigonjay]

while we are on the subject - is there an ideal speed at which the water should be pumped round in a cc system? or is faster/slower than standard rate better?

Jay

just checking you hadnt missed this dino?

No, I didn't miss it mate. I just chose to ignore it, as that would help one of my competitors greatly!

lol, no probs mate

[Born2Run]

Dino
Thats what I was going to do with the stock ic. Hadnt thought about tricking the fan into switching on at a lower temp tho. Good idea. My cooling is fine. Refilled the whole system 6 months ago so system is clean. Well it looks like its going to be a fun 6 months in South Africa. Lots of experimentation. Luckily I have a bar and pool on site for those moments when it all gets too much for me, he he.
Chhers guys. This is all very helpul

Rory[/quote]

[Quigonjay]

Dino
Thats what I was going to do with the stock ic. Hadnt thought about tricking the fan into switching on at a lower temp tho. Good idea. My cooling is fine. Refilled the whole system 6 months ago so system is clean. Well it looks like its going to be a fun 6 months in South Africa. Lots of experimentation. Luckily I have a bar and pool on site for those moments when it all gets too much for me, he he.
Chhers guys. This is all very helpul

Rory

[/quote]

i'm assuming the trip to SA is with work? what do you do for a living if you dont mind me asking?

Jay

[MR2Mania]

i'm assuming the trip to SA is with work? what do you do for a living if you dont mind me asking?

Chargecooler installs on MR2s from the sound of it! LOL!!!

[Jimbob]

Having said that, there's no easy answer really. As someone said, you want it to be fast enough not to heat soak, yet not TOO fast so that the water doesn't absorb some heat. We've done a LOT of number crunching to arrive at our choices, and that's why I kinda guard that info.

Don't blame you. It's a headache calculation but quite easy if you have a thermodynamics background.

Things to consider..............

Heat (energy) loss from Pre-rad - Possible to calculate if your fluid mechanics is good! (and you can be ar$ed to work out surface area of pre-rad). Actually come to think of it quite easy (I leave it at that)

Heat (energy) loss from charge to water

Heat (energy) loss from pipework - assumption and generally negligable in the scheme of things. Can be calculated in much the same way as heat loss from pre-rad

Specific Heat capacity of water or cooling medium, air and other bits and pieces - constants

Mas flow rate of water to be calculated via the energy balance, this is your design flow

Energy in is energy out bit of jiggery pokery and thats the general theoretical answer, then time to test it in practice!

You can set up a model in Excel and once you know a few baseline readings you can tweek your calcs and even give fairly accurate theoretical intake temps based on varying abient and boost temp conditions.

Won't say much more but thats roughly it. Wouldn't wanna give the game away Dino

Right time to fire up excel and dig out some exam notes I actually did a case study on turbo charger design at Uni maybe I should dig out those books and try to learn it again?


James