Lift-Off over steer question

[usergoeshere]

Hello All, I am new here looking to get an MR-2 mk2. I have never driven a mid-rear engine car or a rwd but from reading I know it is prone to snap/lift-off oversteer specially the earlier models. I know from driving fwd cars what lift-off oversteer is like.

I have read how people counter snap/lift-off oversteer using opposite lock and keeping on the accelerator but I was wondering what would you do if say you are going round a roundabout on a very wet day and a car comes flying from your left. My sudden reaction would be to step off the accelerator quickly and press (or pulse the brakes in case of no abs) on the brakes which will most likely induce an oversteer. I don't think it will be a good idea to slide it out or keep on the pedal or you will hit the other car. I know the best thing is to not push the car to a point where it does this but the scenario here is unexpected or somewhat beyond your control. What are your thoughts?

[gavsdavs]

Hello All, I am new here looking to get an MR-2 mk2. I have never driven a mid-rear engine car or a rwd but from reading I know it is prone to snap/lift-off oversteer specially the earlier models. I know from driving fwd cars what lift-off oversteer is like.

I have read how people counter snap/lift-off oversteer using opposite lock and keeping on the accelerator but I was wondering what would you do if say you are going round a roundabout on a very wet day and a car comes flying from your left. My sudden reaction would be to step off the accelerator quickly and press (or pulse the brakes in case of no abs) on the brakes which will most likely induce an oversteer. I don't think it will be a good idea to slide it out or keep on the pedal or you will hit the other car. I know the best thing is to not push the car to a point where it does this but the scenario here is unexpected or somewhat beyond your control. What are your thoughts?

You shouldn't be and are generally nowhere near the limits of grip when in close proximity to other cars on the road.

The scare stories tend to come from people who are used to fwd cars and drive the MR2 clumsily. You simply do NOT stamp on the throttle. You do not go WOT with any lock on in the wet. You just get used to this.

It is not the cars' fault, it is usually poor throttle control.

Add to that the fact that the mr layout gives you a lot less warning that the slide is irretrievable - people started to label the behaviour as "snap oversteer", when it's really more a question of them being too slow to react.

Mine has 290ft/lb of torque from 2000rpm and will break traction in the wet, you just have to apply throttle gently and assume it's going to try and kill you.

[usergoeshere]

Hello All, I am new here looking to get an MR-2 mk2. I have never driven a mid-rear engine car or a rwd but from reading I know it is prone to snap/lift-off oversteer specially the earlier models. I know from driving fwd cars what lift-off oversteer is like.

I have read how people counter snap/lift-off oversteer using opposite lock and keeping on the accelerator but I was wondering what would you do if say you are going round a roundabout on a very wet day and a car comes flying from your left. My sudden reaction would be to step off the accelerator quickly and press (or pulse the brakes in case of no abs) on the brakes which will most likely induce an oversteer. I don't think it will be a good idea to slide it out or keep on the pedal or you will hit the other car. I know the best thing is to not push the car to a point where it does this but the scenario here is unexpected or somewhat beyond your control. What are your thoughts?

You shouldn't be and are generally nowhere near the limits of grip when in close proximity to other cars on the road.

The scare stories tend to come from people who are used to fwd cars and drive the MR2 clumsily. You simply do NOT stamp on the throttle. You do not go WOT with any lock on in the wet. You just get used to this.

It is not the cars' fault, it is usually poor throttle control.

Add to that the fact that the mr layout gives you a lot less warning that the slide is irretrievable - people started to label the behaviour as "snap oversteer", when it's really more a question of them being too slow to react.

Mine has 290ft/lb of torque from 2000rpm and will break traction in the wet, you just have to apply throttle gently and assume it's going to try and kill you.

Well yes you are right, this might not happen on public roads but what if it does. Lets say something similar happened on track where its a tight bend and there is an obstruction ahead and you really want to stop the car. Would you still keep on the throttle and only gently lift off?

[gavsdavs]

Well yes you are right, this might not happen on public roads but what if it does. Lets say something similar happened on track where its a tight bend and there is an obstruction ahead and you really want to stop the car. Would you still keep on the throttle and only gently lift off?

If you are mid corner with suspension loaded up and you want to stop the car in a hurry you have a few things.
1. You have ABS so the car will still steer under braknig.
2. The car (like almost every car in the road) will naturally understeer when you hit the brakes and it'll want to try and head in a straight line.
Only if you really were using WOT and transitioning to hard braking with steering lock on will the rear want to come around you. I've only provoked this on a track. Thats' when you have a lot of rear to front weight transition AND you've got some lock on.

Yes, you come off the throttle. If you want to stop the car, staying on the throttle is pretty much the wrong thing to be doing (innit)

[usergoeshere]

Well yes you are right, this might not happen on public roads but what if it does. Lets say something similar happened on track where its a tight bend and there is an obstruction ahead and you really want to stop the car. Would you still keep on the throttle and only gently lift off?

If you are mid corner with suspension loaded up and you want to stop the car in a hurry you have a few things.
1. You have ABS so the car will still steer under braknig.
2. The car (like almost every car in the road) will naturally understeer when you hit the brakes and it'll want to try and head in a straight line.
Only if you really were using WOT and transitioning to hard braking with steering lock on will the rear want to come around you. I've only provoked this on a track. Thats' when you have a lot of rear to front weight transition AND you've got some lock on.

Yes, you come off the throttle. If you want to stop the car, staying on the throttle is pretty much the wrong thing to be doing (innit)

I am sorry but what does WOT stand for?

[gavsdavs]

Well yes you are right, this might not happen on public roads but what if it does. Lets say something similar happened on track where its a tight bend and there is an obstruction ahead and you really want to stop the car. Would you still keep on the throttle and only gently lift off?

If you are mid corner with suspension loaded up and you want to stop the car in a hurry you have a few things.
1. You have ABS so the car will still steer under braknig.
2. The car (like almost every car in the road) will naturally understeer when you hit the brakes and it'll want to try and head in a straight line.
Only if you really were using WOT and transitioning to hard braking with steering lock on will the rear want to come around you. I've only provoked this on a track. Thats' when you have a lot of rear to front weight transition AND you've got some lock on.

Yes, you come off the throttle. If you want to stop the car, staying on the throttle is pretty much the wrong thing to be doing (innit)

I am sorry but what does WOT stand for?

Apologies. Wide Open Throttle/full power, where the weight balance is furthest back.

FWIW - I consider "lift off oversteer" a FWD phenomenon, where the act of lifting off allows the weight balance of the car to move forward. This makes your rear tyres lose/reduce grip, making the tail go a lot lighter. That behaviour is a lot less pronounced/noticeable in an MR car as the engine and the grip that adds - is right over the rear wheels.

As I mentioned in my first post it takes a lot of practise to recognise when you are rear losing traction in an MR car and act to reduce it. It's not behaviour you want to provoke as if the rear starts to slide around you, you need to reduce lock and straighten the fronts up quickly, more quickly than you would have to in a RWD or a FWD car. the extra mass of the engine makes the behaviour difficult to predict/prevent (though not impossible).

An mr2 will spin under power and under braking, but generally if you've done something wrong (myself included)

[gnzyza]

Tyres make a huge difference in the way the grip let's go. The MR handles great with a proper chassis tune and tyres, you can really cover ground quickly but dont expect to throw it into corners like a hot hatch.

Best advice to anyone is get some track time to really explore the limits of both your car and you.

[usergoeshere]

If you are mid corner with suspension loaded up and you want to stop the car in a hurry you have a few things.
1. You have ABS so the car will still steer under braknig.
2. The car (like almost every car in the road) will naturally understeer when you hit the brakes and it'll want to try and head in a straight line.
Only if you really were using WOT and transitioning to hard braking with steering lock on will the rear want to come around you. I've only provoked this on a track. Thats' when you have a lot of rear to front weight transition AND you've got some lock on.

Yes, you come off the throttle. If you want to stop the car, staying on the throttle is pretty much the wrong thing to be doing (innit)

I am sorry but what does WOT stand for?

Apologies. Wide Open Throttle/full power, where the weight balance is furthest back.

FWIW - I consider "lift off oversteer" a FWD phenomenon, where the act of lifting off allows the weight balance of the car to move forward. This makes your rear tyres lose/reduce grip, making the tail go a lot lighter. That behaviour is a lot less pronounced/noticeable in an MR car as the engine and the grip that adds - is right over the rear wheels.

As I mentioned in my first post it takes a lot of practise to recognise when you are rear losing traction in an MR car and act to reduce it. It's not behaviour you want to provoke as if the rear starts to slide around you, you need to reduce lock and straighten the fronts up quickly, more quickly than you would have to in a RWD or a FWD car. the extra mass of the engine makes the behaviour difficult to predict/prevent (though not impossible).

An mr2 will spin under power and under braking, but generally if you've done something wrong (myself included)

Okay so from your post before it seems one would have to really try in order to induce the lift off oversteer/spin in an MR layout? When you say straighten up the fronts do you mean with reference to the direction of understeer/travel (by using opposite lock) or with reference to the car? And what would you do with the brake and accelerator at this point?

[usergoeshere]

Tyres make a huge difference in the way the grip let's go. The MR handles great with a proper chassis tune and tyres, you can really cover ground quickly but dont expect to throw it into corners like a hot hatch.

Best advice to anyone is get some track time to really explore the limits of both your car and you.

Track time will come after I have spent the money on making whichever mr2 I get reliable and servicing etc. I just don't want to crash until then

[gavsdavs]

Okay so from your post before it seems one would have to really try in order to induce the lift off oversteer/spin in an MR layout? When you say straighten up the fronts do you mean with reference to the direction of understeer/travel (by using opposite lock) or with reference to the car? And what would you do with the brake and accelerator at this point?

Umm - I'll try and restate. Lift off oversteer is a front wheel drive, front engined car thing. When you "lift off" the throttle, the weight balance of the car moves forward, making the rear tyres go lighter and reducing rear traction. If you combine that with any lock, the car will oversteer.

A mid engined, rear wheel drive car is a lot less prone to that behaviour because of the different weight distribution. It's also not what you want the car to be doing as it's more likely to turn around once the spin begins.

By "straighten the fronts" i mean return the steering to central or even in the opposite direction as you say.

This is 'opposite lock' -where you steer to towards the direction the tail is going to keep the front wheels in front of the rear wheels and to prevent them coming round for the spin.

With regards to throttle - if you stay on throttle and the rear has started to slide, the rear will keep sliding.

If you come off the throttle, the force pushing the rears to go wide goes away and the car will straighten up (or be less likely to spin).

If you brake and you're already sliding it sort of depends how far round the spin is. Beyond a certain point the car is going to spin and braking just stops the wheels but not the spin.

Strongly suggests something like a car limits day to practise this - wide open airfield and skid/spin exercises. The MR2 doesn't easily do 'lift off oversteer', but will oversteer under power and braking quickly if you don't notice a slide beginning, and it will spin with little warning.

[Geoff]

Hope OP doesn't mind me jumping in on the thread; I know it’s over a week old now though. All my cars until my MR2 have been FWD hatchbacks, all of which I only ever suffered understeer with aside from a mk4 golf, that wobbly boat would lift off over steer quite 'easily' and be easy to counter but was annoying how quickly it would do so, even other golf owners were confused why. Jumping in to an MR2 I was slightly cautious, I don't mess about trying to get the rear end to misbehave but I find you can feel it behave differently from a FWD car, I think it takes more than you think to reach that limit in an MR2, after the limit I can’t comment on how hard it is to prevent a spin and recover as I’ve not needed to.

I am curious though, there is a small bypass where I live, all straight apart from a bend at one side. Like I said I don't mess about in my car, I enjoy myself but I try not to cross that line in to the unknown/stupid. Going round the bend from the start you can probably WOT all of 2nd gear and part of 3rd before your back going straight again. I never felt like my grip was close to the limits on the few occasions I’ve had some speed up round the bend but I also didn't keep my foot down, before the bend I let off a little and 'cruised' round. I'm sure the car wouldn't start sliding out from WOT round the bend, but it does make me think would letting off to change gear cause an MR2 to lift off over steer in this kind of situation?

[gavsdavs]

....... Going round the bend from the start you can probably WOT all of 2nd gear and part of 3rd before your back going straight again. I never felt like my grip was close to the limits on the few occasions I’ve had some speed up round the bend but I also didn't keep my foot down, before the bend I let off a little and 'cruised' round. I'm sure the car wouldn't start sliding out from WOT round the bend, but it does make me think would letting off to change gear cause an MR2 to lift off over steer in this kind of situation?

For that corner on the bypass, you're not getting any wheelspin/slide in 2nd or 3rd - I assume that is in the dry. Would you (and I am not suggesting you do this carelessly) haave the same confidence to use WOT in the wet, or in February on slippery roads ?

In answer to your question of "can changing from 2nd to 3rd with a bit of lock on provoke lift off oversteer" - i think the answer is no, it doesn't. You're more likely to get oversteer as you disengage the clutch in 2rd and the rears spin up on you due to the torque

[Driftlimits Performance]

Go get training. Companies out there that specialise in teaching people how to drive sideways. Learn in a controlled environment, leave with new skills.in The heat of battle you do your natural reaction. Which is usually overcorrect. A 'silver' day with us and I'd have you drifting with confidence.

[androo007]

What's included / price for your days Luke?

[JD]

OP I read your post and was thinking, even if you're taking the roundabout quite fast, if you've got halfway decent tires and good alignment that shouldn't really be a problem. if there was diesel all over the roundabout, or ice, then I'd imagine you'd be in trouble, but then so would everyone else

[Simarshy]

Only way to learn is to go to a safe environment and practise. Takes a bit of time but it's perfectly possible to drive an MR2 sideways all the way around a track

[Race Idiot]

Fancy organising an MR2 car control day luke????

[usergoeshere]

Okay so from your post before it seems one would have to really try in order to induce the lift off oversteer/spin in an MR layout? When you say straighten up the fronts do you mean with reference to the direction of understeer/travel (by using opposite lock) or with reference to the car? And what would you do with the brake and accelerator at this point?

Umm - I'll try and restate. Lift off oversteer is a front wheel drive, front engined car thing. When you "lift off" the throttle, the weight balance of the car moves forward, making the rear tyres go lighter and reducing rear traction. If you combine that with any lock, the car will oversteer.

A mid engined, rear wheel drive car is a lot less prone to that behaviour because of the different weight distribution. It's also not what you want the car to be doing as it's more likely to turn around once the spin begins.

By "straighten the fronts" i mean return the steering to central or even in the opposite direction as you say.

This is 'opposite lock' -where you steer to towards the direction the tail is going to keep the front wheels in front of the rear wheels and to prevent them coming round for the spin.

With regards to throttle - if you stay on throttle and the rear has started to slide, the rear will keep sliding.

If you come off the throttle, the force pushing the rears to go wide goes away and the car will straighten up (or be less likely to spin).

If you brake and you're already sliding it sort of depends how far round the spin is. Beyond a certain point the car is going to spin and braking just stops the wheels but not the spin.

Strongly suggests something like a car limits day to practise this - wide open airfield and skid/spin exercises. The MR2 doesn't easily do 'lift off oversteer', but will oversteer under power and braking quickly if you don't notice a slide beginning, and it will spin with little warning.

I havn't replied here for a while but just wanted to say thank you for detailed explanation.

[usergoeshere]

Go get training. Companies out there that specialise in teaching people how to drive sideways. Learn in a controlled environment, leave with new skills.in The heat of battle you do your natural reaction. Which is usually overcorrect. A 'silver' day with us and I'd have you drifting with confidence.

I'd imagine an MR2 is not a good drifter because of its layout. I want to learn how to control it better if I pushed the limits on track. is this your website (d r i f t l i m i t s . c o . u k) ? What courses do you offer that will fit me?

[Draven]

Go get training. Companies out there that specialise in teaching people how to drive sideways. Learn in a controlled environment, leave with new skills.in The heat of battle you do your natural reaction. Which is usually overcorrect. A 'silver' day with us and I'd have you drifting with confidence.

I'd imagine an MR2 is not a good drifter because of its layout. I want to learn how to control it better if I pushed the limits on track. is this your website (d r i f t l i m i t s . c o . u k) ? What courses do you offer that will fit me?

No the Mr2 isn't the car to use to drift, if you are very skilled it can be done. best cars for drifting are F/R layout.

Yes it is his website. have a look on the site. The silver package is quite good