Most power and torque on stock internals?

[ryan_s3]

Hi,
Haven't been around for a bit but was wondering if anyone is running over 320bhp on stock internals with the aid of a different turbo(or hybrid) and bolt-ons.Is the power fc or e-manage the choice now owens no longer map the unichip.

[Bry]

Mike JC and John Rees are both hitting around that figure with stock internals,both have a power fc and John has a P.E 1919 Turbo on his.The only prob they both have is the injectors hitting 100% duty cycle
Bry

[ryan_s3]

so bigger injectors needed at 320bhp...what about the fuel pump does that need upgrading?

[MR2Mania]

so bigger injectors needed at 320bhp...what about the fuel pump does that need upgrading?

I'd change the pump first, as I reckon that's the first "restriction" (see the other thread on "injector sizing" - http://www.imoc.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=228).

I'd also opt for the Unichip over the E-manage, as you've got control of timing, too. When the new Unichip comes out, that could be very interesting, as it'll a lot more useful features. However, if you go to standalone, now that MoTeC have dropped their price of the M4 to £895+VAT, I see no reason to go to any other standalone. It's just not worth the saving, when you take everything else into account.

[MR2Mania]

Incidentally, the main issue you should worry about in trying to extract more than 320bhp from the stock bottom end is whether you've got an "early" Rev3 block. I've seen several go now, and they weren't going too silly on the boost, either.

[ryan_s3]

thanks dino,
think i'm coming back to the two again.Is it easier to run a in-line pump rather than dropping the tank which i did last time as it was a pain in the ass.How much are the m4 install going for now?So what do you suggest i do,there's not many "built" two running around and how new does the block have to be in order to avoid the thin walls?

[V8Killer]

I cracked my block and took out a chunk of a piston ring with only 320BHP / 310LB-FT.

[Mikejc]

I dissagree regarding the fuel pump. On the bases that if it were not up to the job then it would not allow enough fuel for the injectors to hit 100% injector duty!?

However, I did infact replace the standed fuel pump for an uprated Walbro item as a matter of course. Given that most of our cars are approching 10 years old, it makes good sense to replace just in case the old unit should fail due to age

As for the early rev3 blocks being weaker, this is very true. But according to the research of JJ, they are only a fraction thinner and not the problem some make out. Specially if you have chosen your supporting mods well

Mikejc

[MR2Mania]

thanks dino,
think i'm coming back to the two again.Is it easier to run a in-line pump rather than dropping the tank which i did last time as it was a pain in the ass

Mate, I wish I could say it was easier, but I'd say it's more of a PITA than replacing the intank one. Basically, on my system, I'm leaving the stock one in as a lifter pump, having an in-line swirl pot (so that the stock "lifter" pump lifts fuel to the pot) and then a more poweful inline pump draws from the swirl pot, etc. The main problem is mounting all this stuff somewhere. Luckily, I've got a trick Carbonfibre airbox to mount this all to, but then the issue is getting the right lines. I've gone for some very good quality stuff, but ended up paying over £400 in fittings and lines alone. The pump was not cheap, either.

I haven't finished it all off though because of the hassle in ordering the right bits, fitting it all, etc. If I was doing it all again, I'd probably just replace the in-tank pump. The one benefit of the system I'm trying to build though is that it won't suffer from surge.

.How much are the m4 install going for now?

Don't know, depends on what tuner you go to (I do it all myself nowadays). I'm thinking of maybe organising a Group Buy in the New Year some time. Then, we could get some good base maps to start from and thus bring it in-line with things like the APEXi PowerFC in terms of quickly getting to a good stage of tune.

So what do you suggest i do,there's not many "built" two running around and how new does the block have to be in order to avoid the thin walls?

Mate, the main problem is identifying you've got a suspect block. Toyota never officially recognised the problem, although it is quite clearly there once you start pushing more power through the engine. It gets to a point where cylinder pressures are sufficiently high to cause the thin wall on cylinder no 2 to collapse to the point that it forms a crack about 1 inch long down the bore.

I've not come across enough info to safely safe after which year the issue was resolved. I've even seen Rev4s having this problem. The only thing I can say for sure is that it was sorted on the 1998 blocks onwards.

[Mikejc]

I really should keep my big mouth shut. No-doubt i'll be joining the ranks of those with cracked blocks now!

Mikejc

[MR2Mania]

I dissagree regarding the fuel pump. On the bases that if it were not up to the job then it would not allow enough fuel for the injectors to hit 100% injector duty!?

And I've tried to explain in another thread that this thinking is flawed. The fact that the injectors are going to 100% means that you're not getting enough fuel, for *whatever* reason (whether injectors, pump, fuel rail pressure, etc).

However, I did infact replace the standed fuel pump for an uprated Walbro item as a matter of course. Given that most of our cars are approching 10 years old, it makes good sense to replace just in case the old unit should fail due to age

You did a good thing, IMHO. Worthwhile getting your fueling checked again now though, as I bet it'll be fueling way too much.

As for the early rev3 blocks being weaker, this is very true. But according to the research of JJ, they are only a fraction thinner and not the problem some make out. Specially if you have chosen your supporting mods well

Depends what you mean by good supporting mods. What's wrong with the mods that myself and Muhsin were trying? Who's managed to exceed the figures we produced for so long without resorting to NOS or a different turbo? The Rev3 blocks have a weakness, full stop. Some break, some don't. As with anything, there are many variables.

IMHO, if you want a reliable 300+bhp stock motor, then you sure as hell would want to know that you haven't got a thin walled block. Sure, it's not worth rebuilding "just in case", but it's worth noting in the back of your mind that, someday, the block might crack, and then you'll need to consider some (costly) options.

[Mikejc]

Wise words noted buddy

I'm more than aware that i'm pushing my luck now. That's why i've decided to strap on a Garret GT28rs along with the bigger 800cc injectors lol

Joking aside though. I really have taken every procausion possible as with regards to keeping things as cool as possible. Only time will tell if they will do a good enough job in keeping things together though! Fingers crossed buddy

Mikejc

[ryan_s3]

The prices of post 98 tubbys are massive,it's probably cheaper to have to have a full rebuild in a early rev 3(or does this not solve the thin wall problem??).

I had the walbro pump on my last tubby,but it really whined ,got on my nerves!!

[V8Killer]

IMHO, if you want a reliable 300+bhp stock motor, then you sure as hell would want to know that you haven't got a thin walled block. Sure, it's not worth rebuilding "just in case", but it's worth noting in the back of your mind that, someday, the block might crack, and then you'll need to consider some (costly) options.

This is true. I learnt the hard way

All the people that have known to push over 320BHP on an early Rev 3s / ST205s have either cracked the block or taken a chunk out the rings, whether its a month down the line or 12 months down. Eventually its likely to happen. Or you may be lucky and have thick walled type.

I'll try and take some digipics of my block soon.

BTW...Mike, i was also overfueling quite badly at 325BHP / 310LB-FT.

[paul port]

The prices of post 98 tubbys are massive,it's probably cheaper to have to have a full rebuild in a early rev 3(or does this not solve the thin wall problem??).

I had the walbro pump on my last tubby,but it really whined ,got on my nerves!!

You can always buy a New Toyota 'Short Block' to guarentee you are getting a good 98+ casting... I guess you would be getting a Caldina block now.

Paul

[Owen @ Kent Car Craft]

Several US residents have made 400hp on std internals (albeit massive bolt ons,GT35's+BIG intake manifolds)
Pointless post,but the fact they DO always suprises me.

[ryan_s3]

Any ideas how much for the short block?

It's the rev 3 engine we are really concerned with on stock internals there really is alot of upgrades on the rev3 over the rev1/2 engine that it really is the best starting point for big hp(and cheapest).
Also i believe that alot of these big hp engines(on stock internals) bring the boost on very gradual to avoid massive low down torque and gain most of the power high in the range it puts alot less stress on the engine but is not the best drivers cars.

[jonno]

My engine is a very early rev4 and its been running 320bhp+ since April, 360bhp since June.

Obviously I cant say for sure that I do have a thick walled block, knowing my luck it will crack tommorow but I can reinforce what Dino said about Toyota denying it and nobody really accepting that its a problem.

It would be nice to just be able to get a list of serial numbers that had the problem.

[ryan_s3]

You've had a rebuild though neil?So will it actually make the problem worse because you have a slight overbore?
Here is a interesting link;
http://gtfour.ca/howtoblowyourengine.html

there's 3 cases of number 3 pistons going on stock blocks on gen 3's between
1.1 and 1.3 bar not good!!

[Owen @ Kent Car Craft]

It seems its always No.3 that goes.Now people say they can map it accordingly to eliminate that problem,but surely there must be a better way of solving the problem (or at least safe-guarding against it)
rather than having one cylinder runing richer etc etc.