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MOT emissions testing - CAT/no CAT
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Gazza_DJ
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

Still would have had a cat when new.
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Davsurfa




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PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

Someone needs to tell the mot tester and Toyota then
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ayresyboy
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1993 Toyota MR2

PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2015 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

My newly purchased import rev 2 auto n/a failed on emissions the other day.





They tested at the stricter value. I don't have any history with the car. MOT history online shows it has failed on emissions before.

Using the VIN number and searching online I have found it has an August 1992 production date.



I don't think it needs the stricter emissions test from what I have read?!?!? But since it is on a K plate the garage won't pass it. I have emailed Toyota through the UK website requesting an official letter stating production date. Has anyone asked for such a letter previously? Just want to know if there is a specific email or phone number where this can be sorted efficiently.

I will also use this letter to correct the DVLA records as they have manufacture date down as 1998.



edit 1 to add: followed flow chart and it does indeed require the cat test using vehicle specific limits. i'm assuming that there is an exact match in the database since you had sw20 3sge's being sold in uk at that time. this is not the case for turbo's though as there is no exact match for 3sgte's.

edit 2 to add that the email for getting an official production date letter is pid@tgb.toyota.co.uk. It costs 10

edit 3 to say i got through the cat test using cataclean. amazing stuff.
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steven63




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PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2015 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

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Last edited by steven63 on Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:43 am; edited 4 times in total
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JD




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PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2015 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

steven63 wrote:
many turbo owners have been able to use a loophole in the law that enabled them to have a non cat test, from this this year this loophole is closed as now any car originaly fitted with a cat now has to have a cat test, all turbos had a factory fitted cat, the new law can be seen in section 7 of the MOT testers hand book


Can you cite your source of that info? It has been said by MOT testers before (I've had that headache) but they've no right to demand you tell them something about the vehicle they should be able to ascertain for themselves - all that happens is that Rev 3 Turbos get what was called the BET (basic emissions test) and for your car to fail that, it wouldn't be fuelling properly. A healthy car should be very safely inside the limit on the BET. I think it's now called the "non-catalyst" test which seems stupid as it could be applied to some cars that it could be argued should have a cat in place to pass but whatever.

I find it stupid that so many daily hacks roll around with knackered, fouled up spark plugs, crappy off brand leads, faulty O2 sensors, etc, basically all the stuff that would have the biggest impact on emissions but they can scrape through an MOT just so long as they have a catalytic converter that barely gets warm enough to make any difference on most journeys anyway.
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jon
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1994 Toyota MR2 Mk2 Turbo Rev3

PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2015 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

steven63 wrote:
many turbo owners have been able to use a loophole in the law that enabled them to have a non cat test, from this this year this loophole is closed as now any car originaly fitted with a cat now has to have a cat test, all turbos had a factory fitted cat, the new law can be seen in section 7 of the MOT testers hand book


Section 7.1 says:

Quote:
.On vehicles that qualify for a full cat emissions test, check the presence of the catalytic converter.


Turbos registered before 1st Aug '95 don't require a full cat emissions test, as stated in the flow chart in section 7.3. Therefore there should be no visual check for a catalytic converter.
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Martin F
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1994 Toyota MR2 Mk2 Turbo Rev3

PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2015 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

steven63 wrote:
many turbo owners have been able to use a loophole in the law that enabled them to have a non cat test, from this this year this loophole is closed as now any car originaly fitted with a cat now has to have a cat test, all turbos had a factory fitted cat, the new law can be seen in section 7 of the MOT testers hand book


Been discussed many times before, Peter sums it up pretty well in this thread...

http://www.imoc.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=177904&highlight=emmisions

Peter Gidden - SBITS wrote:
MR2 Rich wrote:
Does anyone know if the MoT emissions has changed for Import Turbos made between 08/92 and 08/95 as my mot tester showed the criteria he had to test to emissions. It said that you need a letter from the manufacturer declaring that your car didn't have a cat fitted?


Since last year, if car had cat fitted from new, it is still supposed to be present. Regardless of whether your car requires a cat test or not.

However, since there are no details of imports on the MOT database, the tester won't know whether it had a cat fitted or not.

So in relaity nothing has changed.

Your MOT tester said get mummy to write a letter? [Laughing]
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C35Rob
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1996 Toyota MR2 Mk2 Turbo Rev3

PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2015 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

Martin F wrote:
steven63 wrote:
many turbo owners have been able to use a loophole in the law that enabled them to have a non cat test, from this this year this loophole is closed as now any car originaly fitted with a cat now has to have a cat test, all turbos had a factory fitted cat, the new law can be seen in section 7 of the MOT testers hand book


Been discussed many times before, Peter sums it up pretty well in this thread...

http://www.imoc.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=177904&highlight=emmisions

Peter Gidden - SBITS wrote:
MR2 Rich wrote:
Does anyone know if the MoT emissions has changed for Import Turbos made between 08/92 and 08/95 as my mot tester showed the criteria he had to test to emissions. It said that you need a letter from the manufacturer declaring that your car didn't have a cat fitted?


Since last year, if car had cat fitted from new, it is still supposed to be present. Regardless of whether your car requires a cat test or not.

However, since there are no details of imports on the MOT database, the tester won't know whether it had a cat fitted or not.

So in reality nothing has changed.

Your MOT tester said get mummy to write a letter? [Laughing]



this.

MR2 turbos are all grey import cars, they aren't in the MOT computer, therefore there is no standard to test them to (other than a BET test, but that is for a car that has/needs a cat, which they don't) and no way of your MOT tester 'proving' that it came with a cat from the factory ergo, it doesn't need a cat.. the end.

FWIW, my Laurel (a 2002 car) failed a BET test on it's first MOT in the country, the tester (at an ATS euromaster, so not a mate that does dodgy tickets) said "its not in the computer so we have to pass it"
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steven63




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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 1:06 am    Post subject: de-cats Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

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madbasshunter
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

MOT phoned Toyota (about my uk rev1) who told them that that the mr2 came with two lambda's [Confused]
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Martin F
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 12:30 pm    Post subject: Re: de-cats Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

steven63 wrote:
the tester should look for a lambda/oxygen sensor if it has one it wiil have had a cat when new, all turbos have these sensors and can easily be seen when the engine cover is lifted during the test


You sound like you want this loophole to be closed [Confused]
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JD




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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

Rob - East Coast Imports wrote:
FWIW, my Laurel (a 2002 car) failed a BET test on it's first MOT in the country, the tester (at an ATS euromaster, so not a mate that does dodgy tickets) said "its not in the computer so we have to pass it"


That makes no sense - if that was the case why even bother with the BET? Lol. It must be hard to fail a BET - what was wrong?
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C35Rob
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1996 Toyota MR2 Mk2 Turbo Rev3

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

JD wrote:
Rob - East Coast Imports wrote:
FWIW, my Laurel (a 2002 car) failed a BET test on it's first MOT in the country, the tester (at an ATS euromaster, so not a mate that does dodgy tickets) said "its not in the computer so we have to pass it"


That makes no sense - if that was the case why even bother with the BET? Lol. It must be hard to fail a BET - what was wrong?


He looked through the computer, there was no 2002 laurel in there (obv) but since it has a gutted cat he said he'd do a bet test anyway, it failed (just) and that was that.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with the car, doesn't use a drop of oil, doesn't breathe hard, perfect compression and the fuelling is bang on (as checked on the dyno)
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JD




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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

Oh I thought whatever it was, if it failed the BET it was a fail, which is kind of the point of BET, just being a trawl for everything the DVSA nee VOSA doesn't have specific data. If it fails the BET but doesn't fail the MOT, there doesn't really seem any point in a BET.
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C35Rob
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

JD wrote:
Oh I thought whatever it was, if it failed the BET it was a fail, which is kind of the point of BET, just being a trawl for everything the DVSA nee VOSA doesn't have specific data. If it fails the BET but doesn't fail the MOT, there doesn't really seem any point in a BET.


I just had a look myself and it says it's not neccesarily a fail, refer to section 9.. At which point I stopped looking. I can guess you know how much I care about the emissions of a car that has done 3500 miles in the last year when there's all sorts or lethal death traps out on the roads
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JD




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PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

Rob - East Coast Imports wrote:
JD wrote:
Oh I thought whatever it was, if it failed the BET it was a fail, which is kind of the point of BET, just being a trawl for everything the DVSA nee VOSA doesn't have specific data. If it fails the BET but doesn't fail the MOT, there doesn't really seem any point in a BET.


I just had a look myself and it says it's not neccesarily a fail, refer to section 9.. At which point I stopped looking. I can guess you know how much I care about the emissions of a car that has done 3500 miles in the last year when there's all sorts or lethal death traps out on the roads


Amen to that.
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Gazza_DJ
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

As some of the information in the OP is out of date due to some recent changes, lets update it. This is mostly relevant to pre August 1995 MR2 Turbos. The end result is the same - they do not need a cat for the MOT - but the process has changed a little.

MOT test documents and the in service emissions book are available for free here - https://www.gov.uk/topic/mot/manuals

A few years ago, a rule was added to Section 7.1 which has a reason for rejection stating "A catalytic converter or particulate filter missing where one was fitted as standard.". I've seen several times on Facebook now people state that this alone means that a pre august 1995 MR2 Turbo will now need to have a cat. This is not the case if you read the full rule, screenshotted and copied below (emphasis added by me) -

On spark ignition engine vehicles that qualify for a full catalyst emissions test and all compression ignition vehicles check the presence of catalytic converter(s) and particulate filter(s).
Note: To ascertain whether a spark ignition engine vehicle qualifies for a full catalyst test, use the flow charts in Section 7.3.C disregarding the result of the Basic Emissions Test.



So, we need to refer to the flowcharts in 7.3.C. (A lot of these aren't relevant really, I'm just showing the full flowchart path)



First used before 1 August 1986? -> No -> Is the vehicle a Class 5? -> No - > First used before 1 August 1992 -> no -> Is the fuel type gas? -> No -> Carry out Basic Emissions Test (BET) See page 7

Off to page 7 (flowchart on page 8 ).



Petrol vehicle first used on or after 1 August 1992 (1 August 1994 for Class 5 vehicles) -> Yes -> Carry out a BET Test Petrol vehicle - it will probably fail without a cat so we continue on.



This is the important one.

Is it a passenger car? -> yes -> Vehicle first used between 1 August '92 and 31 July '95 -> Yes -> Can you find an exact match in the analyser database or the In-Service Emissions book? -> No -> Carry out a non CAT test.

Why do we carry out a non cat test? There is no exact match in the in service emissions book for an MR2 Turbo. The 3SGTE is not listed -



It is listed for the Celica GT4 as there was a UK market version. This means that a 1994 MR2 turbo doesn't need a cat, but a 1994 Celica GT4 does, even though it's essentially the same engine.

This does not apply to Japanese import NA's because there is a match in the book. If you imported a 5SFE powered 1994 USDM MR2 it would follow these same rules as there is no 5SFE MR2 in the book.



For those with NA chassis with a 3SGTE conversion (or any other engine), pay attention to the first part of section 7.3 -

Vehicles fitted with a different engine must be tested to the requirements of whichever is older, the engine or the vehicle. e.g. A 1995 car fitted with a 1991 engine (of whatever make), test to 1991 standards for emission purposes.
Note: The onus is on the vehicle presenter to prove engine age.



So if you fit a 1994 3SGTE to a 1999 UK MR2, it follows the same rules as an imported 1994 MR2 Turbo - it does not qualify for a full catalyst test and therefore doesn't need a cat for the MOT.
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mrhappy62




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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

Great post Gareth , I was interested although not worried as mine is a 1991 N/A

See you Sunday [Very Happy]
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raptor95GTS




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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

thanks for updating [thumleft]
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Hez
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

Just had my 1994 mr2 turbo fail emissions, wouldnt do a non-cat test despite what i said because he found the 3sgte under the celica and would only test to that despite it not been a exact match. Picked a good one there!
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