Which fecking cams?

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Bender Unit
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Which fecking cams?

Post by Bender Unit »

Ok this isnt funny any more :roll: :D

I keep getting mixed opinons on what I should run cam wise.

Should I go for 272ex and 272in?
Or should I go for 264ex and 272in?
Or 272ex and 264in?

I have seen an argument for all 3 options and cant make my mind up.

I want a responsive engine as I intend to hammer it around a few track days - so what combination do people suggest?

Cheers

James
jonno
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Re: Which fecking cams?

Post by jonno »

Nothing wrong with the stock cams to be honest, although I quite like my 264's too.

Dont really see much point in messing around with this stepped cams idea - if it made *that* much difference HKS would sell them stepped.

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stevecordiner
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Re: Which fecking cams?

Post by stevecordiner »

Hi James,

The whole cam debate - the only reason I went stepped 272 in 264 ex is because I'm using HKS cams which are designed for a normally aspirated car. NA's use reversion to affect compression, whereas turbo cars are primarily concerned with gas flow.

The thing is with cams is partly how they respond is how you degree them in. When JJ had his 264s in, he could have the car either a fairly smooth idle and a gentle power band - or lumpy idle and pulling like crazy from 4k to the redline. Just by playing with the exhaust cam. The characteristics you get will partly be down to how you set them up to be :)
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ENSMR2
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Re: Which fecking cams?

Post by ENSMR2 »

Wouldn 2x 272's give a lumpy idle anyhow?

I didnt want a lumpy idle and for my power goals 2 264's should be good enough.

What are you power goals and do you mind a lumpy idle?
Bender Unit
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Re: Which fecking cams?

Post by Bender Unit »

Power wise I am looking for around or over 450bhp with an engine that’s responsive for track use. I would ideally prefer to have a car that idles smoothly; as it would be used on a regular basis and sitting in traffic with a car that has a lumpy idle can get very tiresome (if you know what I mean) however if that’s what I need to install to get the performance I want they so be it. However after doing some reading on the US lists, hearing what you have mentioned Steve and also what JJ has advised I think I will plump for the 264 exhaust and 272 intake, as that seems to be the best combination between practicality and power.

Cheers

James
stevecordiner
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Re: Which fecking cams?

Post by stevecordiner »

The HKS staggered setup apparantly has a smoother idle too.

I'm looking forward to seeing what the staggered combo is like - dyno results should be interesting
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paul_h
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Re: Which fecking cams?

Post by paul_h »

I have a pair of 264's in,

I found once they are dialled in correctly to HKS specs then the idle is nice and smooth with the odd burble, Power wise you really feel them come alive around 4500 to redline (must raise it soon).


The only time I felt a bad idle was when the exahaust cam was played with moving away from the correct specs. I found the HKS specs to produce the best power (butt dyno) and also the best idle.


Very pleased with the setup I have altough I've never tried the others.


paul
ENSMR2
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Re: Which fecking cams?

Post by ENSMR2 »

Im after about the same power goals as yourself. 264's will cut it.
JJ
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Re: Which fecking cams?

Post by JJ »

hornsey wrote:I have a pair of 264's in,

I found once they are dialled in correctly to HKS specs then the idle is nice and smooth with the odd burble, Power wise you really feel them come alive around 4500 to redline (must raise it soon).


The only time I felt a bad idle was when the exahaust cam was played with moving away from the correct specs. I found the HKS specs to produce the best power (butt dyno) and also the best idle.


Very pleased with the setup I have altough I've never tried the others.

paul


this is it... what i found was exactly the same, setup to the HKS setup, it was a little progressive and late for the whole engine getting a thump... idling perfect... run a bit more advance on the exhaust cam, made the car run like crap on idle ( alters mixture obviously ) but by hell , did I get a good whallop earlier in the rev range... always around 4k.

More retard seem to stick the power in @ 5K+ rpm.

The thing with these cams is the different lift heights on the Rev 1/2's to the rev 3's. The HKS cams destined for the rev 3's are a higher lift and again give different characteristics !

I too am happy with the 2x 264's on the rev 3 engine, though if I did it again, and I might just do it still is go and get one of those crazy lifting 10mm+ 272 degree duration's on the intake !!

Funny thing though, 264's Zero'd in yeilds the most power out of supra 2JZ's ( assuming undisturbed stock block ! ) - I guess is spot on for HKS.

:wink:
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Bender Unit
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Re: Which fecking cams?

Post by Bender Unit »

Hi John,

Did you get my email?


Cheers

James
MR2Mania
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Re: Which fecking cams?

Post by MR2Mania »

The way I see it, the staggering performs a specific task depending on how you staggered the cams.

Let's say you start with 272s on both sides. You'll get an uneven idle. This is caused by the overlap between both cams. Now, by staggering the cams (ie one of them being 264), you are reducing the overlap.

Now, what does staggering the cams do? I've spoken to people that have used a higher lift/longer duration exhaust cam, and they claim that they've been able to bring in the power much sooner (ie better spool up), but it doesn't rev any differently.

In contrast, by having a higher lift/duration on the inlet side, you are giving the engine more breathing, so it'll suit more top end work, but since you have a smaller exhaust cam, it won't be lumpy anymore.

Incidentally, the published figures by any given company for their cams are there as a guide ONLY. Every engine is different, and to add to that, the timing is even affected by the thickness of the head gasket, so the only way to get the best out of the cams is to fit them and spend the time dialing them in according to what you see on the rolling road.

To really know what the best combo is, you'd have to try at least 2 profiles on each side (inlet and exhaust), and the various combinations. Not only is this time consuming, but it would be VERY expensive to do this.

This is why I've left cams to the very end, so that I'm not introducing a variable that may be causing me issues rather than achieving anything. Once I've got all other variables resolved, then I can concentrate on the cams.
steve b
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Re: Which fecking cams?

Post by steve b »

Cars been on the rollers today to have the stock cam timing fiddled with(HKS vernier pullies) to see if any gains can be had, I collect the car wednesday so will let you know the results then, maybe a cheaper alternative.

Remember on rev1 & 2's you'll also need a shim under bucket conversion or shimless buckets to run anything like the HKS 272's, The kent/ piper cams for the 3sge have really silly lift as well making them really not advisable for rev1 or 2 with out lifter conversions.
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JAP BOY
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Re: Which fecking cams?

Post by JAP BOY »

Out of curiosity what gains can be acheived by doing came as ive seen some on fensport for the NAs
Chris \'aka rustboy\' Amm

Re: Which fecking cams?

Post by Chris \'aka rustboy\' Amm »

i'd like to know what cams give a nice burble on a turbo :) who cares about performance i want a deep burble!

maybe i shoulda brought a V8 :D
JJ
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Re: Which fecking cams?

Post by JJ »

Chris 'aka rustboy' Ammon wrote:i'd like to know what cams give a nice burble on a turbo :) who cares about performance i want a deep burble!

maybe i shoulda brought a V8 :D


Spam boy, change the exhaust and the car will sound like how it looks ! :wink:
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JJ
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Re: Which fecking cams?

Post by JJ »

JAP BOY wrote:Out of curiosity what gains can be acheived by doing came as ive seen some on fensport for the NAs


Hmmmm .. on a normally aspirated.. I managed and increase of 15 bhp peak on a celica I once had ( 3SGE powered ! ) Torque had increased.

Good improvement but not worth the cost... simply too much. These cars are well engineered in the first place which always reduces the amount of improvements its made over stock.

Not thought of a Power FC for the normally aspirated ??? they're rare, but available. A programmable ems will churn out more power than doing mechanical mods and stock ems.

:wink:
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Re: Which fecking cams?

Post by Chris \'aka rustboy\' Amm »

JJ wrote:
Chris 'aka rustboy' Ammon wrote:i'd like to know what cams give a nice burble on a turbo :) who cares about performance i want a deep burble!

maybe i shoulda brought a V8 :D


Spam boy, change the exhaust and the car will sound like how it looks ! :wink:


duh that's why i have an apexi N1 down on my wish list :D

every bu88er has a blitz! :D
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Re: Which fecking cams?

Post by Driftlimits Performance »

no rustboy, you need a departure 2 :twisted:
JJ
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Re: Which fecking cams?

Post by JJ »

Chris 'aka rustboy' Ammon wrote:
JJ wrote:
Chris 'aka rustboy' Ammon wrote:i'd like to know what cams give a nice burble on a turbo :) who cares about performance i want a deep burble!

maybe i shoulda brought a V8 :D


Spam boy, change the exhaust and the car will sound like how it looks ! :wink:


duh that's why i have an apexi N1 down on my wish list :D

every bu88er has a blitz! :D


Theres reasons behind peoples decision. The blitz can be silenced... I think the N1 can too... but the N1 will make your ears bleed !!

Do you want to be deaf, dumb and blind !! :wink:
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steve b
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Re: Which fecking cams?

Post by steve b »

spoke to my mapper / mechanic today and adjusting the exhaust camshaft timing on my stock rev2 turbo cams gave "a good inrcease in power before turbo spool-up and had no effect whilst on boost"

so sounds worth doing and cheap as chips compaired to new shafts and fitting.

Got to see how it drives now :D find out tomorrow :D
'02 VX220 2.2 n/a Daily driver - Exige Size TD 1.2 - TAT shorty Diffuser - HardTop - Chris Tullet 4-1 Manifold.

'97 mk1 Mazda Eunos Turbo track car with 260bhp/ton - soon more as Chris Wilsons going to build me an engine over the winter :o) .
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