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Are uk 3sge's actually inherently gutless? And what about BEAMS cars?
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Jayridium




Joined: 19 Oct 2012
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Location: North East Scotland
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 12:51 pm    Post subject: Are uk 3sge's actually inherently gutless? And what about BEAMS cars? Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

I recently went to view a rev5 uk car, which was a relatively rough example that photographed well in its gumtree advert. Apart from a list of things I found needing sorted on it, one of my overall memories of the car was just how gutless it was.

What I was expecting was for the MR2's acceleration to be comparable to that of my 206 gti180's acceleration, or even my 407 coupe diesels, but even wringing the MR2 out to the red line, either of those cars would have left that MR2 for dead. On paper all three cars I've mentioned are ~8secs 0-60mph cars. The 206GTi180 is 177BHP 2.0ltr NA, 1250kg, the 40c coupe is heavier but torquier making similar 0-60 times.

Basically the reason for starting this thread is to pick your brains to see if the sort of performance I have described above is what I'm aiming for, am I wasting my time looking at NA's? Or will a good example of an NA MR2 offer me what I'm looking for?

I'm also looking for a beams in the sonic shadow paint job, I know that is a bit optimistic, but I'm hoping if I find one it would exceed the performance of the other two cars I own that I'm using as a benchmark, can anyone cast any light on this as well?
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pbmr2
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

none of the UK cars ever made 177hp, 175 was the most for the rev3 NA. Rev 4 and 5 were 168 due to egr valve.

but a rev4 should still be doing sub 8 second 0-60 pulls, should be around mid 7s. They seem to perform better than the numbers would suggest. They don't really have very high torque though.

A rough example of a car could have all sorts of issues, sticking brakes are common and could well have slowed it's performance and handling.
It does sound like you sampled a dud.

The beams is 20odd hp more than the rev3 and not much more torque. yeah it's an improvement over the rev3 and the lighter block helps to combat the heavier rev5 setup. the performance isn't improved by huge amounts. although it's a nicer NA engine than the rev3 or 4/5.
If you can find one (there were only 1000 ever made) then grab it. the Redtop engine can be swapped into the chassis but needs a number of mods to complete the swap.

rev3+ turbo is 240hp and 224lbs/ft and is fast. even the older rev1 is 220hp and 203lbs/ft, which is almost 50hp and 60lbs/ft more than an NA.

Everyone has their own internal dyno of what fast is, but compared to the cars you list, a healthy rev5 NA should have performed well.
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Jayridium




Joined: 19 Oct 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

Thanks for the feedback, I'm pleased to hear the NA mr2 is in the sort of performance window I was expecting it to be, and this I won't be too disappointed when I find a nice example. I've sort of came to the conclusion that the beams sonic shadow T-Bar I want to buy is so rare I'm unlikely to find one at sensible money any time soon, so instead I'm going to look for a really nice rev4/5 sonic shadow, and plan on transplanting an altezza black top beams into it with standalone engine management, which will support later tinkering with either throttle bodies or a supercharger.
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androo007
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1994 Toyota MR2 Mk2 Turbo Rev3

PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

I personally think you'll be disappointed. There's a thread just below this where people have had NA's (normal and beams) and said that beams wasnt that different, and turbo was much better.

If you can, save up a little more, spend about 4k and you'll get yourself a really tidy Rev3+ turbo. That's just my opinion as a turbo owner though.
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pbmr2
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

The blacktop beams is extreemly hard to make fit the MR2. Water connections all over the place, not enough engine mount points, intake is the wrong way round and the dual VVTI hits the shock tower. Also think the gearbox doesn't bolt right up (though could be mixing up engines there)

You'll need a lot of red top parts to make it fit, just get a red top to start with if you really want the beams.

Do your research before commiting to any of the engines. all the info is out there. good luck [thumleft]
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thomp1983
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

If you want to stay na then fit a v6, it'll be cheaper in the long run than trying to make a blacktop beams fit and is fairly straightforward to do
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Gazza_DJ
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1997 Toyota MR2 Mk2 NA Rev4

PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

Black top into a SW20 can be done, I know someone running one in an AW11. I doubt there's more room in there!
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danjama




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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

The real question is, why would you?
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Gazza_DJ
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1997 Toyota MR2 Mk2 NA Rev4

PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

If you want revvy NA power but don't want to put a K20A in? Expensive way to go about it but the black top BEAMS can make good power.
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Angpozzuto
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1989 Toyota MR2 Mk1b

PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

If you're after na power a v6 is definitely worth a look, they're completely different to the 3sge
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DAN_REV1_TURBO
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1990 Toyota MR2 Mk2 Turbo Rev1

PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

Sounds like you need an MR2 Turbo to be content.
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Dans Modified MR2 Turbo >>> http://www.imoc.co.uk/forums/garage.php?mode=view_vehicle&CID=2727
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VGB




Joined: 20 Mar 2010
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1995 Toyota MR2

PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

I've had 2 na and took a few out for test drives when looking for one. I'd agree the power does seem under whelming. Other cars I had at the same sort of times which all seemed quicker whilst being bigger are Civic vti coupe, Octavia vrs and 406 coupe hdi.
I'd say if you want performance you need to go turbo.
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rev3gtturbo




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1994 Toyota MR2 Mk2 Turbo Rev3

PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

Anyone looking at buying an mr2 should check what tyres are fitted. Any cheap ditch finder tyres (or tyres worn down to 2mm used in the wet) will make the whole performance a lot worse than it could be. Not just acceleration but cornering and braking as well.

When I got a low mileage mr2 to replace my high mileage mr2 (same age and engine) I noticed the tyres were not something I had tried before so took it easy on the test drive (in the dry) until I got used to the tyres in the corners and roundabouts. It just felt nervous and couldnt do what my old car could and the back end let go in the dry driving familiar roads much slower than my old car.
Difference in performance was so big I had the wheels swapped.
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aussieGT




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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

rev3gtturbo wrote:
Anyone looking at buying an mr2 should check what tyres are fitted. Any cheap ditch finder tyres (or tyres worn down to 2mm used in the wet) will make the whole performance a lot worse than it could be. Not just acceleration but cornering and braking as well.



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shinny




Joined: 27 Nov 2006
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1994 Toyota MR2 Mk2 Turbo Rev3

PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

pbmr2 wrote:
none of the UK cars ever made 177hp, 175 was the most for the rev3 NA. Rev 4 and 5 were 168 due to egr valve.


This is a much repeated fallacy... EGR valves improve emissions at idle, right? The valve itself is closed above 4000rpm, so the presence of the EGR can't explain a drop in peak power numbers.

A much better explanation is the reaffirmation of SAE J1995_199506; the standardisation of engine dyno measurements (I'll let you guess which year that was). Prior to that, OEMs would use their own standards, meaning power figures quoted weren't directly comparable between manufacturers. With the introduction of standardisation, I believe many quoted power figures dropped, in different amounts for different manufacturers. In this case, a drop of only 7bhp (although I thought the rev3 was quoted at 173bhp) suggests Toyota was actually fairly honest. [thumleft]
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Gazza_DJ
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1997 Toyota MR2 Mk2 NA Rev4

PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

Map might be slightly different for emissions purposes perhaps (ECU PN is different) but having driven several variations of Rev3/4/5 NA's there really is no noticeable difference. Probably because there's no difference at all.
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shinny




Joined: 27 Nov 2006
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1994 Toyota MR2 Mk2 Turbo Rev3

PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

Gazza_DJ wrote:
Map might be slightly different for emissions purposes perhaps (ECU PN is different) but having driven several variations of Rev3/4/5 NA's there really is no noticeable difference. Probably because there's no difference at all.


Agreed; the map could be different and result in a reduction of power; I can't prove that either way. However the EGR is not the cause of the drop in claimed power. The P/N would be different simply because it now needs to operate the EGR. Don't rev4s onwards have the immobiliser built into the ECU too? That would also result in a new P/N.
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jon
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1994 Toyota MR2 Mk2 Turbo Rev3

PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

shinny wrote:
Gazza_DJ wrote:
Map might be slightly different for emissions purposes perhaps (ECU PN is different) but having driven several variations of Rev3/4/5 NA's there really is no noticeable difference. Probably because there's no difference at all.


Agreed; the map could be different and result in a reduction of power; I can't prove that either way. However the EGR is not the cause of the drop in claimed power. The P/N would be different simply because it now needs to operate the EGR. Don't rev4s onwards have the immobiliser built into the ECU too? That would also result in a new P/N.

Internally a Rev 4 ECU is completely different to a Rev 3 ECU. Toyota took the opportunity to cost reduce the ECU for the Rev 4. A Rev 4 ECU is a single PCB whereas the Rev 3 ECU is 2 PCBs with a flexible connector between the 2 PCBs.
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Brundle25




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1999 Toyota MR2 MK2 BeamsVVTi

PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

Having owned two MR2's, a 1991 N/A and a BEAMS since 2004, i can absolutely say the difference in engine is very noticeable, especially as you get to high revs. Anyone saying otherwise has probably never driven one. Eats rear tyres though. In all the time I have owned it, i have never seen another stock BEAMS mr2 on the road.
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Truzo




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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

DAN_REV1_TURBO wrote:
Sounds like you need an MR2 Turbo to be content.


I went to look at and test drive a rev3 na after owning 2 turbo's.
I did not buy it, heavily disappointed.

(it was a jdm tin top rev3 na, dunno if the uk ones are the same? )
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