[Mk2] [Turbo] New exhaust manifold and downpipe

[tiff_lee]

After a recent stint away at sea and saving some cash up I decided to splash out on a new exhaust for my turbo. I've bought a KO Racing R1 system which is yet to arrive but I also decided to replace the chinese ebay downpipe with a Berk downpipe (new type with the flexible) and I took a punt on a chinese.... 3mm tubular manifold, i've no real need for it I just fancied giving it a go.

The new downpipe


although I must say i'm not particularly impressed. In the stock images on the Berk website the flange where it meets the exhaust is double seam welded (inside and out) but this has been somewhat poorly finished imo, hell my $99 chinese downpipe has a better finish than this




nice flat flange



small kink where they have formed the radius as well



couple of inside shots



Now the chinese 3mm 'steampipe' manifold, as expected had the distinct chinese quality about it looked as if someone tried to square the turbo flange with a flap disc



and to my horror, even though it was supposed to be for a Rev 3 it appears to have the smaller port style of older heads




i'm confident i'll be able to open the ports up on that flange the intention being to put a taper on either side and blend into the exhaust pipe/tube.

Oh and speaking of chinese downpipes again, I knew my exhaust manifold gasket was leaking I could hear ticking on startup but I had no idea this had occured, pinholed and cracked

[SonicSW20]

Christ, is that what Berk send out these days? I had read that quality wasn't as good these days, but that's absolutely xxxx for the money they cost. I'd send it back!

[ashley]

+1

That's a POS....not even back purged....send it back

[tiff_lee]

The problem is I had to ship this to Aus from the states as no Berk distributor here, to send it back is going to cost a small fortune due to weight so at what point do I cut my losses and just keep it.

I did contact Berk via the website querying the quality of it and they didn't reply, safe to say i'll never buy a Berk product again.

[C35Rob]

How did you pay for it mate? If it was PayPal or credit card I'd maybe try to screen shot their website, send pics of the one you got and try to get the payment reversed as being unfit for purpose/mis-sold etc?

[tiff_lee]

Paypal, the deal breaker though will be on the return postage won't be cheap from Aus I'll probably end up paying at least 1/3 the cost of the downpipe again.

[kirk]

That's certainly put me off....

[tiff_lee]

That's certainly put me off....

I know right, had I seen this beforehand I would of definitely bought something else. During my search for which downpipe alot of people seemed to praise the Berk one as being the best..... I beg to differ

[craig]

I have a Berk decat. Bought in 2008, it's still in perfect condition, well made, perfect flanges. It appears their quality control has slipped since then!!

[tiff_lee]

Heard back from Berk, apparently they no longer weld the flange inside and out as standard as they found the outside weld was plenty strong enough which is air to say just not what's pictured on their website.

They also had this to say regarding the warping of the flange
"the more heat input we have on the flange, the more it will warp. Most manufacturers use mild steel for the flanges because there is less elongation during welding, but we chose to use stainless flanges to corrosion resistance.
-By allowing the flange to warp in the direction we want to, the seal is tighter as you place more tension on the bolts"

So there you have it, a warped flange leads to a tighter seal......

[C35Rob]

Heard back from Berk, apparently they no longer weld the flange inside and out as standard as they found the outside weld was plenty strong enough which is air to say just not what's pictured on their website.

They also had this to say regarding the warping of the flange
"the more heat input we have on the flange, the more it will warp. Most manufacturers use mild steel for the flanges because there is less elongation during welding, but we chose to use stainless flanges to corrosion resistance.
-By allowing the flange to warp in the direction we want to, the seal is tighter as you place more tension on the bolts"

So there you have it, a warped flange leads to a tighter seal......

And a crossed thread is as good as thread lock

As I said on faceache, my first Berk DP was really badly warped, so I rejected it and took the other one the trader had on the shelf, still slightly off but true enough to seal up with a proper gasket.. Still not good.

It's just a pure cost cutting exercise, it's not hard to bolt the flange down to a heat sink block to minimise warping when welding then to true it up on a mill/surface grinder after welding.

[craig]

That's Berk items now black marked for me. Fancied a berk exhaust and nearly bought one. Glad I didn't now, if that downpipe and response from Berk is anything to go by. Glad I saved my cash and bought a japspeed instead.

[tiff_lee]

Heard back from Berk, apparently they no longer weld the flange inside and out as standard as they found the outside weld was plenty strong enough which is air to say just not what's pictured on their website.

They also had this to say regarding the warping of the flange
"the more heat input we have on the flange, the more it will warp. Most manufacturers use mild steel for the flanges because there is less elongation during welding, but we chose to use stainless flanges to corrosion resistance.
-By allowing the flange to warp in the direction we want to, the seal is tighter as you place more tension on the bolts"

So there you have it, a warped flange leads to a tighter seal......

And a crossed thread is as good as thread lock

As I said on faceache, my first Berk DP was really badly warped, so I rejected it and took the other one the trader had on the shelf, still slightly off but true enough to seal up with a proper gasket.. Still not good.

It's just a pure cost cutting exercise, it's not hard to bolt the flange down to a heat sink block to minimise warping when welding then to true it up on a mill/surface grinder after welding.

Told the lads at work about your threadlock comparison got a few laughs. Yeah as you say cost cutting exercise pure and simple, fair enough they deem the single weld sufficient but no need for the BS regarding tighter seal and extra tension it's just insulting.

[Mike N]

I bought a 3mm thick rev 3 tubular exhaust manifold from the net which looks remarkably like yours in the picture above (mine was returned to the company that sold it to me and later they re-advertised and sold for £98 on ebay).

I discussed the issues that you mentioned above and more eventually it was sent back.

I was offered a discount if I kept the manifold but wanted them to send me a proper one that fitted. The company gets them made in china and the manufacturers sell to several aution sites.

My turbo flange was distorted by over 3mm across its face, only a machine shop with the right cutter could re-face it which is more dificult than it looks and like yours the holes in the manifold flange were undersized and mismatched. There were many other issues too.

The company I dealt with told me after I gave them a list of corrections that new versions would be made up soon.

http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/0LkAAOSw6 ... -l1600.jpg

[tiff_lee]

I bought a 3mm thick rev 3 tubular exhaust manifold from the net which looks remarkably like yours in the picture above (mine was returned to the company that sold it to me and later they re-advertised and sold for £98 on ebay).

I discussed the issues that you mentioned above and more eventually it was sent back.

I was offered a discount if I kept the manifold but wanted them to send me a proper one that fitted. The company gets them made in china and the manufacturers sell to several aution sites.

My turbo flange was distorted by over 3mm across its face, only a machine shop with the right cutter could re-face it which is more dificult than it looks and like yours the holes in the manifold flange were undersized and mismatched. There were many other issues too.

The company I dealt with told me after I gave them a list of corrections that new versions would be made up soon.

http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/0LkAAOSw6 ... -l1600.jpg

Yeah unfortunately it is of typical chinese quality whereby they usually have a poor reference item then just churn them out.

I've had the faces machined flat now so I just need to do some porting. The Rev 3 ports are actually wider than the tube itself but the least they could do is get them central, it doesn't help that although it's listed as for a Rev 3 the gasket shipped with it is of the earlier Gen with smaller ports so there is clearly some confusion there as well on their part.

Also they tapped the exhaust flange m12 x 1.75, with studs that are M12 at either end so I need to get some custom studs knocked up on the lathe which won;t be too difficult just going to turn down some M12 bolts and tap the end to M10 x 1.25.

[Nic]

I've had the faces machined flat now so I just need to do some porting. The Rev 3 ports are actually wider than the tube itself but the least they could do is get them central, it doesn't help that although it's listed as for a Rev 3 the gasket shipped with it is of the earlier Gen with smaller ports so there is clearly some confusion there as well on their part.

Also they tapped the exhaust flange m12 x 1.75, with studs that are M12 at either end so I need to get some custom studs knocked up on the lathe which won;t be too difficult just going to turn down some M12 bolts and tap the end to M10 x 1.25.

You might want to also put a bore scope down the runners to thoroughly check for any internal slag/welding that could potentially break free and go through the turbo.

[Martin F]

I've had the faces machined flat now so I just need to do some porting. The Rev 3 ports are actually wider than the tube itself but the least they could do is get them central, it doesn't help that although it's listed as for a Rev 3 the gasket shipped with it is of the earlier Gen with smaller ports so there is clearly some confusion there as well on their part.

Also they tapped the exhaust flange m12 x 1.75, with studs that are M12 at either end so I need to get some custom studs knocked up on the lathe which won;t be too difficult just going to turn down some M12 bolts and tap the end to M10 x 1.25.

You might want to also put a bore scope down the runners to thoroughly check for any internal slag/welding that could potentially break free and go through the turbo.

If a cheap copy, that thought alone would make me bin it.... Added with the fail rate that would send me over the edge, standard will probably work better as well as eradicate forthcoming problems with the item failing, what are your plans to be wanting a manifold of this design just out of interest ?

[tiff_lee]

I've had the faces machined flat now so I just need to do some porting. The Rev 3 ports are actually wider than the tube itself but the least they could do is get them central, it doesn't help that although it's listed as for a Rev 3 the gasket shipped with it is of the earlier Gen with smaller ports so there is clearly some confusion there as well on their part.

Also they tapped the exhaust flange m12 x 1.75, with studs that are M12 at either end so I need to get some custom studs knocked up on the lathe which won;t be too difficult just going to turn down some M12 bolts and tap the end to M10 x 1.25.

You might want to also put a bore scope down the runners to thoroughly check for any internal slag/welding that could potentially break free and go through the turbo.

If a cheap copy, that thought alone would make me bin it.... Added with the fail rate that would send me over the edge, standard will probably work better as well as eradicate forthcoming problems with the item failing, what are your plans to be wanting a manifold of this design just out of interest ?

This is the same manifold as those that are renowned for failing/cracking. No major plans as such just fancied giving the manifold a go, standard may well be better but nothing ventured nothing gained.