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[Mk2] [Generic] Reducing front end lift and generally improving front end grip
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Magic Beans
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

Right, thanks. [Smile]

So undertrays must offer some benefit then, as they help maintain that isolation by keeping the arch in place. [Think]

I'd like to better understand what effects the various entry points on the bumper have and whether there's scope for improvement by channeling air internally, instead of air just rushing in and going where it wants?
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bobhatton




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1991 Toyota MR2 Mk2 Turbo Rev1

PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

Have you seen this

http://www.mr2oc.com/showthread.php?t=410768
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Magic Beans
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

I have indeed. Answers some questions but creates many more.

Looks like I've got some experimenting to do.
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hmltnangel




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1993 Toyota MR2 Mk2 Turbo Rev3

PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

Well from reading all that......

A GT40 inspired bonnet vent, flat undertray at the front to the back of the tyres, rear diffuser and BGW would give fantastic downforce.

I would probably leave the rev 3 spoiler I have on though as the thought of a BGW makes me sick lol

Id also custom a full flat undertray/rear diffuser as one piece, pending confirmation it would increase downforce.
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bobhatton




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1991 Toyota MR2 Mk2 Turbo Rev1

PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

hmltnangel wrote:
Well from reading all that......

A GT40 inspired bonnet vent, flat undertray at the front to the back of the tyres, rear diffuser and BGW would give fantastic downforce.

I would probably leave the rev 3 spoiler I have on though as the thought of a BGW makes me sick lol

Id also custom a full flat undertray/rear diffuser as one piece, pending confirmation it would increase downforce.


That is what I would do too.
The undertray would also cover over the base of the engine as much as I could
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synXero




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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

Flat undertray would be awesome on an MR2. But aren't they supposed to draw air in from underneath...?
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HurleyRacing




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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

This was our original splitter/flat floor/undertray on our race car,

We know have a bigger one that extends further [Smile]

It's bolted from the underneath, and stretches back to the back of the front wheels. Probably not a suitable solution for a road car i would imagine but you get the idea. It's strong enough to stand on.

It creates front down force and works as an air dam, creating pressure so that air flows through the radiator. the radiator has a duct that directs the radiator air out underneath the car which will flow into our rear diffuser.

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hmltnangel




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1993 Toyota MR2 Mk2 Turbo Rev3

PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

synXero wrote:
Flat undertray would be awesome on an MR2. But aren't they supposed to draw air in from underneath...?


Well I would suspect that a TOMS airscoop would be invaluable here as it would provide the air forced into the engine bay along with the scoops on the side forcing more air in, then the air would vent through the louvres an top into the low pressure area behind teh window. In addition I think that the rogue fan kit would help circulate air in the engine bay.

need to run it through the model and see what it reckons.

hmmmm
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bobhatton




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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

hmltnangel wrote:
synXero wrote:
Flat undertray would be awesome on an MR2. But aren't they supposed to draw air in from underneath...?


Well I would suspect that a TOMS airscoop would be invaluable here as it would provide the air forced into the engine bay along with the scoops on the side forcing more air in, then the air would vent through the louvres an top into the low pressure area behind teh window. In addition I think that the rogue fan kit would help circulate air in the engine bay.

need to run it through the model and see what it reckons.

hmmmm


No air is needed in the engine bay, the engine is water cooled.
The TOMS is for engine inlet air only not for engine bay cooling as the flow would be the wrong way.
Any air that comes in the side inlets would be enough to cool anything that may need cooling, nothing needs to come up from the bottom of the engine bay
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hmltnangel




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1993 Toyota MR2 Mk2 Turbo Rev3

PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

bobhatton wrote:

No air is needed in the engine bay, the engine is water cooled.
The TOMS is for engine inlet air only not for engine bay cooling as the flow would be the wrong way.
Any air that comes in the side inlets would be enough to cool anything that may need cooling, nothing needs to come up from the bottom of the engine bay


Thats why I always wondered why people had Scoops on both sides - it serves no purpose for engine intake air.

Well if thats the theory I might do this once I have some cash after my holidays.

Will need to stick it into the model to see if the TOMS scoop has an adverse effect on anything?
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Magic Beans
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

It's a shame EMS no longer offer the flat underbody panels they used to produce. The only option now is having something custom made [Think]
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Rosssco




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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

hmltnangel wrote:
bobhatton wrote:

No air is needed in the engine bay, the engine is water cooled.
The TOMS is for engine inlet air only not for engine bay cooling as the flow would be the wrong way.
Any air that comes in the side inlets would be enough to cool anything that may need cooling, nothing needs to come up from the bottom of the engine bay


Thats why I always wondered why people had Scoops on both sides - it serves no purpose for engine intake air.

Well if thats the theory I might do this once I have some cash after my holidays.

Will need to stick it into the model to see if the TOMS scoop has an adverse effect on anything?


The engine side vents are for intake air feed on one side (direct to the standard airbox), and to the cooling fan with cowling on the other. I was not under ht impression that they provided (from the standard design of the body), meaningful engine bay cooling. That is from underneath the the engine bay, and signified by the slightly up-turned plastic undertray under the fuel tank area.

My opinion on the TOM's scoop (when not used with its specific airbox) is that it will not help, and may even hinder cooling, as it just introduces another airflow path directly into any airflow coming from the side vent. Since cooling is about improving airflow through the engine bay, this turbulence isn't helping anything..

The effectiveness of a complete flat floor is not optimised without a huge rear diffuser, front splitter (practicalities on a road car?) plus ride height alternations. I suppose you can do it for the hell of it, or if its a competition car with many other aspects of the vehicle focused on track performance, but otherwise I'd rather not risk engine heat build up and reliablity for the sake of a changes of unproven benefit, and limited effectiveness on the road and lower speed tracks.

As an example, the VX220 / Elise has a flat undertray (with naca ducts underneath the engine bay for ventilation) and requires a large diffuser and front splitter to achieve any meaningful reduction in lift, and then its only effective at speeds of +70-80mph. It also make it a bit more of a PITA to access the underside of the engine / gearbox.
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KarlBristol




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1991 Toyota MR2 Mk2 V6

PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

You could always buy one of these and measure the downforce of each modification accordingly... That way you know if its having any positive effect or not

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/JDM-ARC-Downforce-Meter-Impreza-WRX-STi-GC8-GDB-GDA-Legacy-BR-Z-/230924363483?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item35c42a26db

I know how you like your gadgets [thumleft]
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Rosssco




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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

KarlBristol wrote:
You could always buy one of these and measure the downforce of each modification accordingly... That way you know if its having any positive effect or not

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/JDM-ARC-Downforce-Meter-Impreza-WRX-STi-GC8-GDB-GDA-Legacy-BR-Z-/230924363483?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item35c42a26db

I know how you like your gadgets [thumleft]


[Shocked] Aside from I think that looks completely useless, from a quick Google, it looks like it measures load compression or tension loads on a wing or bootlid, therefore won't work on the front (unless hooked up to perhaps a tension rod on a splitter, even that that doesn't mean much), and cannot measure the downforce or lift reduction created by a flat floor. Only measurement I can imagine being of use in trying to assess downforce is measurement of suspension load or perhaps tyre pressure, both of which are highly variable.

Japanese tuning companies produce some very good, high quality components, but this looks like one of their most snake-oil-ish I've seen..
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Tsia
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1995 Toyota MR2 Mk2 Turbo Rev3

PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

Most people fit the double 'scoops' on the roof for the looks/style. Each to their own and all.

I personally think it's xxxx, but people still visit Spain, too.
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Magic Beans
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

New tyres fitted, along with the original arch liners. There's now large gaps between the liner and the bodywork, so it looks like fabbing something custom is the way forward.

Is aluminum sheeting the best thing to use and if so what thickness should I be using? I also plan to make a custom front undertray at the same time, so I'm not sure if the same thickness sheeting can be used for both applications? [Think]
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Leakie Tbar




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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

Hmm , what utter bull$h1t the engine needs no air flow , has anyone heard of radiant heat soak ?

Toyota spent designing the car to draw air from underneath and push it out the top if his wasn't needed , why did they do it,

It fookin amazes me what you read on these forums Sometimes

Obviously no one is thinking about engine longevity when you run your engine in a metal box with no or little air low,,

Toyota put that fan on the ge's just for giggles , or the fact most of us upgrade the smic because its too cool no because it heat soaked with engine bay with higher charge temps and radiant heat !!!
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hmltnangel




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1993 Toyota MR2 Mk2 Turbo Rev3

PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

3sGE I cant offer any meaningful words but on a 3sGTE with SMIC then the side ducts/fan do exactly what they should - one cools the intake air and provides a fresh clear feed to the induction/turbo, the other flows through the SMIC to remove the heat from the charge air. Once it passes through the SMIC, effectively the air flowing over the engine from that point .... would be hot.

What I was considering doing is to move my Air Filter into the TOMS scoop and mount it so that its sealed inside there, only allowing the cold fresh air to get in. Then put a shroud and fan on each side vent to draw cold air in. Couple thsi with a Chargecooler and I wouldnt expect engine temps would suffer at all
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Leakie Tbar




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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

The toms scoop is designed to be used the the toms air box which it feeds into, this would be the only practical way,

Apart from that toms scoops are the work of the devil,,


If I remember right there was a test done with the engine bay fan kit, the results where positive in all areas
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Magic Beans
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

Does anyone know what kind of thickness of aluminium sheet I'd need to use for the front undertray? Or if there's a better material to use?

Metal would be good as I'd like to incorporate speed flaps into the single sheet.
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