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[Mk2] [Generic] Reducing front end lift and generally improving front end grip
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Magic Beans
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1998 Toyota MR2 Mk2 Turbo Rev5

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:36 pm    Post subject: [Mk2] [Generic] Reducing front end lift and generally improving front end grip Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

My long term aims for the Mule have been to create a well rounded car, which has handles well, performs well and most importantly is reliable. The last two are pretty much sorted, leaving just the handling aspect to really get a grip on, so to speak [Wink]

In general I find the handling to be pretty good at lower speeds, especially since replacing the track rod ends and having 4 wheel alignment sorted, adding Cusco tension rods and a Toms underbody brace. What I'd like to improve is the front end lift/handling at higher speeds, as I've always found '2s to be a little floaty and vague when you get to 60mph and above. When I compare the drive the my 1 series at similar speeds the BM always feels like the front and back end are balanced equally, where as the '2 feels somewhat disconnected in comparison, like it wants to understeer. You never quite feel confident that it will go where you point it and this is what I'd like to address.

I've done a reasonable amount of reading on the causes, along with the various solutions and whether or not they make any difference at normal road speeds. What I'd like to do is go over all the available options and the pros and cons of each. Before that I'll list the spec of the front end of the car, to see if there's anything obvious on my current set-up which would cause the symptoms I have:

* Border front bumper
* 245 front tyres, which I know cause a drop in grip, however these are being replaced with 225s in the next couple of weeks or so. 225 was pretty much the narrowest I can add due to the front wheels being 8.5".
*No front bumper undertray
* Wide arch kit - Do they affect air flow in the wheel arches?
* No bumper bar (not my doing)
* No front arch liners
* Stock ARBs
* Black Billies - Lowered 30mm (Apex springs) all round.
* Carbon Driftworks rear wing - I know this is the rear but I was wondering if the increased rear downforce had a negative effect on the front? The back end feels solid at all speeds.

Below is a list of the possible modifications I've read about, each of which I'd be curious to know if there's any real world benefit to and if not; why not?:

* Canards
* Speed flaps?
* Custom made (due to being a Border bumper) undertray. For both the bumper and/or the length of the chassis
* Border vented bumper, along with the radiator angling mod
* Aftermarket ARBs
* Coilovers

I'm not saying I'd be planning on adding or changing all of the above, I'm more interested in understanding what effects each might have, what benefit they might bring and how my existing set-up could be refined. Any other observation/suggestions people might have are gratefully received [thumleft]

A somewhat epic thread intro I know, however it's what's been floating around in my head and I thought it better to show my line of thinking and current set-up before simply asking for solutions [Smile]
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Last edited by Magic Beans on Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Donato




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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

Pretty interested in this one too. I'd probably say that a thicker front ARB would do a lot of good in this case. Standard one is 19mm so anything thicker would work from the likes of whiteline and TRD. I've gone from a 17mm bar to a 19mm bar and that helped a lot in terms of front end grip/handling. So to have 21mm (i think) would be witchcraft.
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sp00n
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

i am no expert on aero dynamics.

however, my first thoughts, are have you tried removing your rear wing (tempary) and seeing if that makes a difference at speed? the way i see it, is if it is pressing down the rear, it could cause the front to alter its angle of attack (ok so i know i am talking a few degrees here), there by forcing air under the front end .... [Confused] [Confused]

it could be your undertray (or lack off), have you considered a front splitter?
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Magic Beans
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

sp00n wrote:
i am no expert on aero dynamics.

however, my first thoughts, are have you tried removing your rear wing (tempary) and seeing if that makes a difference at speed? the way i see it, is if it is pressing down the rear, it could cause the front to alter its angle of attack (ok so i know i am talking a few degrees here), there by forcing air under the front end .... [Confused] [Confused]

it could be your undertray (or lack off), have you considered a front splitter?


I haven't, however it feels similar to how my previous '2 felt, which was a stock rev3 body wise. Logically it shouldn't be making too much of a difference, as you see them on track cars etc. I guess they're also paired with matching front end mods, so it could be contributing towards the feel.

The one thing they had in common is that it also didn't have a front undertray, which is why it's on the list.

I understand MR2s naturally have a reasonable amount of front end anyway, however I know they can feel rock solid. Rob B's old car for example felt absolutely planted when he took me out in it. That ran a stock front bumper but with Tein struts and the above chassis mods I now have on my car.
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sp00n
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

Magic Beans wrote:
sp00n wrote:
i am no expert on aero dynamics.

however, my first thoughts, are have you tried removing your rear wing (tempary) and seeing if that makes a difference at speed? the way i see it, is if it is pressing down the rear, it could cause the front to alter its angle of attack (ok so i know i am talking a few degrees here), there by forcing air under the front end .... [Confused] [Confused]

it could be your undertray (or lack off), have you considered a front splitter?


I haven't, however it feels similar to how my previous '2 felt, which was a stock rev3 body wise. Logically it shouldn't be making too much of a difference, as you see them on track cars etc. I guess they're also paired with matching front end mods, so it could be contributing towards the feel.

The one thing they had in common is that it also didn't have a front undertray, which is why it's on the list.

I understand MR2s naturally have a reasonable amount of front end anyway, however I know they can feel rock solid. Rob B's old car for example felt absolutely planted when he took me out in it. That ran a stock front bumper but with Tein struts and the above chassis mods I now have on my car.


Sounds like it may be down to lack of front under tray [thumleft]
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Magic Beans
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

It's probably a contributing factor. I'm sure the arch liners is having a negative effect in some way too [Think]
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alanmr2turbo




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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

I had a kei office front bumper which didn't fit the standard MR2 under trays and felt horrid at higher speeds (60mph+) the steering felt realy soft and after 80mph it was a brown trouser moment [Laughing]

Anyways, after picking up and fitting a Genune TOM's front bumper and under trays it improved the front end grip no ends. Even at higher speeds, up to 100mph the steering felt a lot better and did't feel like the car wanted to throw you off the road at any given moment.

When i go back to the Kei Office bumper next year im fabricating my own under trays. [Very Happy]
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synXero




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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

The undertray and the arch liners have to make a difference, yeah.

I can't recommend rev5 speedflaps highly enough. The beams feels a thousand times firmer than the rev3 NA I had before.
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dantheman
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:21 pm    Post subject: Re: [Mk2] [Generic] Reducing front end lift and generally improving front end grip Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

Magic Beans wrote:


*No front bumper undertray - increases lift underneath the front of the vehicle
* No front arch liners - increases turbulence in the wheel arches = more lift
* Carbon Driftworks rear wing - will change angle of attack and centre of pressure to be lower on front end, forcing air under car. = lift



* Canards - do not generate downforce, only preserve underside low pressure zones, which you wont have = useless
* Speed flaps? - dont know what they are
* Custom made (due to being a Border bumper) undertray -probably best solution, incorporate a splitter aswell
* Border vented bumper, along with the radiator angling mod - not worth it
* Aftermarket ARBs - see below


ARBS have the effect of adjusting the lateral weight transfer characteristics of a vehicle A stiffer ARB on the rear than the front will transfer more weight during cornering. Because tyres generate decreasing grip levels as weight is applied, more weight transfer reduces overall axle grip. If you put a stiffer rear ARB on you alter the handling balance to become more oversteering. If you want the car to feel more direct on turn in to a corner this is by far the most effective way to do it.

Other suspects could be the alignment, your steering rack or column.
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asdrewq




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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

I like your style.

I would look at getting a front undertray installed, and arch liners if you can with the wide arch setup. This combined with a proper alignment and decent tyres should have you sorted.

Larger diameter wheels with lower profile tyres will also lead to a tighter feeling car at high speed, but there will be a sharp tradeoff against ride quality.
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Magic Beans
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:04 pm    Post subject: Re: [Mk2] [Generic] Reducing front end lift and generally improving front end grip Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

dantheman wrote:
Magic Beans wrote:


*No front bumper undertray - increases lift underneath the front of the vehicle
* No front arch liners - increases turbulence in the wheel arches = more lift
* Carbon Driftworks rear wing - will change angle of attack and centre of pressure to be lower on front end, forcing air under car. = lift



* Canards - do not generate downforce, only preserve underside low pressure zones, which you wont have = useless
* Speed flaps? - dont know what they are
* Custom made (due to being a Border bumper) undertray -probably best solution, incorporate a splitter aswell
* Border vented bumper, along with the radiator angling mod - not worth it
* Aftermarket ARBs - see below


ARBS have the effect of adjusting the lateral weight transfer characteristics of a vehicle A stiffer ARB on the rear than the front will transfer more weight during cornering. Because tyres generate decreasing grip levels as weight is applied, more weight transfer reduces overall axle grip. If you put a stiffer rear ARB on you alter the handling balance to become more oversteering. If you want the car to feel more direct on turn in to a corner this is by far the most effective way to do it.

Other suspects could be the alignment, your steering rack or column.


Thanks Dan. It's good to know there's logic to my way of looking at it. [thumleft]

The front undertray was something I was pretty much set on doing anyway, I just like to ensure that there's a benefit in doing something, rather than things just being for show.

Speed flaps are the plastic pieces which are attached to the front of the front wheel arches. Fitted as standard on Rev5 cars I believe.

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Magic Beans
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

asdrewq wrote:
and arch liners if you can with the wide arch setup.


That's a good point actually, as the outer arches have been cut out when fitting the wide arches. I'm not sure how the outers would be held in place, unless some custom pieces are fabbed [Think]

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GreddyMR2
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

I was planning to do so:
http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/3/1753/4061/29382030017_large.jpg

This should help when arches liners are not fitted.
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KarlBristol




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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

Could you not put a couple of concrete blocks in the frunk?
It will improve grip and handling [Anxious]

*I'll get my coat* lol


In all seriousness arch liners and proper under trays would probably help a lot. Have a chat with Rogue motorsports [thumleft]

I'm not convinced that speed flaps will make a whole lot of difference [Think]

Have you considered canards? Have a quick gander here

http://www.rapid-racer.com/aerodynamic-upgrades.php


Last edited by KarlBristol on Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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synXero




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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

KarlBristol wrote:
I'm not convinced that speed flaps will make a whole lot of difference [Think]


Honestly, they do. Almost all modern cars are fitted with them as well - go looking next time you walk somewhere. They're great [thumleft]
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KarlBristol




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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

I stand corrected [thumleft]

Because I don't have them fitted to my 2 I can't do a before and after comparison.however doing some quick research a lot of people are very positive about them [Think]

They sell them here;

http://www.twosrus.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=599


I find it more interesting to drive my car and not know if I will get to my destination [Laughing]
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synXero




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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

Hence the revision 1 [Whistle]
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Magic Beans
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

Do they fit aftermarket bumpers? Border in this case [Think]
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KarlBristol




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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

Magic Beans wrote:
Do they fit aftermarket bumpers? Border in this case [Think]


The speed flaps look like they actually bolt to the wheel arch liners/front bumper, and even have the same indented middle section [Think]

What does your front bumper section look like?
Do you have no wheel arch liner?

Anything can be made to fit, and if you bought a set it would be the perfect excuse to make a custom undertray lol


Hell, I'm even tempted to try and find a set now! (I think I may need them after the V6 goes in!!)
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

KarlBristol wrote:
They sell them here;

http://www.twosrus.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=599


I keep them in stock. [thumleft]
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