Some alternative reading for you all...
This is unsual although could only happen to me !! After strengthing techniques to the block with some hardened steel / iron liners, I've now found the next weakness in line with the 3SGTE !!
This is the result of several hard pulls along the road one night ( along side a 500+bhp scooby ) you can see theres no real damage to the journal contact face as I shut the engine down after feeling a sudden loss in power and oil temp spiking to 120 degrees.... needless to say... roadside I cranked it, it turned over a little sick, fired up and stalled... cranked again... this time with a distinct sound of rod knock...
Left it alone and cursed it !
This is what I discovered a little over 4 weeks ago.......
Couple of comments which will open up conversations :
Engine "only" running 1.6 bar at the time
Engine is datalogged regularly for engine condition / knock / air temps etc. I do this to see the affects of performance in the seasonal variations.
Alloy crank pulley in place > This has been on since 2004
Anyway.. enjoy the pictures.......
Admin > If you can assist in displaying the photos instead of just the links... Cheers
Crankkiller - 3SGTE Crank failure
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Crankkiller - 3SGTE Crank failure
Last edited by JJ on Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Crankkiller - 3SGTE Crank failure
One of the GT4 guys has also had a crack appear in a journal, though it was barely hairline it would have probably gone like yours has at that power level.
TTE crank next?
TTE crank next?
Re: Crankkiller - 3SGTE Crank failure
TTE Crank ?! I was hunting around although not really trying much... everywhere I looked, discontinued !! Didn't even want to look down the Japan route...
Being impatient, I stuck another unmachined crank in and is good as gold again... although I'm running low boost at the moment ( 1.2 bar )...
This is the engine bay as of yesterday
Do you know if that Gt4 was running an alloy crank pulley jon ?
Being impatient, I stuck another unmachined crank in and is good as gold again... although I'm running low boost at the moment ( 1.2 bar )...
This is the engine bay as of yesterday
Do you know if that Gt4 was running an alloy crank pulley jon ?
Last edited by JJ on Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Crankkiller - 3SGTE Crank failure
Wo- catastrophic failure
Was there enough of the bearing shell from that journal to see if it had been running hot?
Was there enough of the bearing shell from that journal to see if it had been running hot?
Re: Crankkiller - 3SGTE Crank failure
Ashman, it was doing 7K + in 5th when it let go ... the shells were still in place, albiet spun in the con rod...
Basically, crank cracked, then ate the bearing to bits ! The shell started spinning in the con rod ( metal on metal ) = spike in oil temps.
The crack did open up significantly, I just dropped it about 3ft in the air to break it in two...
Luckily stopped the engine even though the turbo was probably on fire, but it reduced the damaged components, oil pump saved, damaged was :
Crankshaft obviously
Conrod > Probably could have saved, but once a bearing spun, deformation usually occurs
Rod bearing
Sump was in a right mess... block completely stripped down, washed, degrease, completely blown out, galleys etc, oil cooler / lines etc...
Basically, crank cracked, then ate the bearing to bits ! The shell started spinning in the con rod ( metal on metal ) = spike in oil temps.
The crack did open up significantly, I just dropped it about 3ft in the air to break it in two...
Luckily stopped the engine even though the turbo was probably on fire, but it reduced the damaged components, oil pump saved, damaged was :
Crankshaft obviously
Conrod > Probably could have saved, but once a bearing spun, deformation usually occurs
Rod bearing
Sump was in a right mess... block completely stripped down, washed, degrease, completely blown out, galleys etc, oil cooler / lines etc...
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Re: Crankkiller - 3SGTE Crank failure
Ouch!
Figured the shell had been wasted, was just curious really...if that bearing had a history of running hot it may have helped explain why that journal cracked.
I've not seen a crank go like that before...impressive
Figured the shell had been wasted, was just curious really...if that bearing had a history of running hot it may have helped explain why that journal cracked.
I've not seen a crank go like that before...impressive
Re: Crankkiller - 3SGTE Crank failure
Definitely interested to know about the alloy crank pulley JJ! I know we discussed it briefly before, but that whole thread on the US OC was all about the harmonics in the crank resulting in the kind of damage you have there (based on the lack of any harmonic damping system).
January 2014
May 2015
Still in the garage...
..the only thing I can promise for sure is slow progress.
May 2015
just have this niggling thought that if I rip out the wiring, then the car will never get out of the garage again.
Still in the garage...
Re: Crankkiller - 3SGTE Crank failure
Shmed wrote:Definitely interested to know about the alloy crank pulley JJ!
Yip... And I'm glad you've brought it up as I dont believe it to be just fatigue of the crank through high boosting and high engine speeds.
Figured the shell had been wasted
Ashman, firstly.. thankyou very much ! Its my first like this !! and secondly... absolutely agreed, in most cases, the bearing starts to spin lead / copper lead side tends to flatten initially / fail.... a spun bearing will superheat the con rod.. and when all the bearing has gone, will start on the crank and superheating the crank will simply crack it !!
In this case.. I know the photos dont do it justice, but the journals dont have any scoring and are very smooth and despite the cracking, I still pulled the shell bearings in a recognisible state.
So instead of bearing failure which is lead to crank failure,
Crank then Bearing.
I've seen Evos, Skylines and Supra owners have similar problems, all running alloy crank pulleys. Theres a reason why theres a dead weight in those bottom pulleys as they are used to reduce vibrations caused by combustion....
No point me explaining it all... some words courtisy of Wikipedia
The Need
Without the presence of a damper a long crankshaft will tend to act as a torsional spring ( twsting ) to some extent. Impulses applied to the crankshaft by the connecting rods will tend to "wind" this spring, which will respond (as a spring-mass system) by unwinding and re-winding in the opposite direction.
This will usually be damped out naturally, but at certain crankshaft rotational speeds the impulses from the cylinder firing can be in synchronization with the natural resonant frequency. (Some aircraft engines are restricted from continuous operations at specific RPM to avoid the danger of metal fatigue causing a break in the crankshaft.)
In an automotive engine there is little control over operation in such specific speed bands and furthermore there may be uncomfortable vibrations as the engine is operated through such speeds, even if not a problem for engine durability.
The Damper
The damper consists of an inner hub affixed usually by a key and keyway to the outer end of the crankshaft. An outer circular mass is attached to the hub by an integral rubber or other elastomeric section. This crankshaft and damper together become (in its torsional response) a spring-mass-damper system. By selection of the damping section material and the size of the outer mass the damper may be made to resist and thus quiet the specific torsional vibrations. These vibrations will not be at the same frequency as originally since additional mass has been added to the resonant system, so the damper must be tuned for the resultant circumstances. The overall appearance is that of a thick disk.
In summary, I believe this failure is due to torsional vibration not being absorbed creating resonance which has simply cracked the crank !
Going back to nitty gritty, recapping above... each time the cylinders fire, torque is imparted to the crankshaft. The crankshaft deflects under this torque upto 2 degrees ( twist ), which sets up vibrations when the torque is released.
At certain engine speeds the torques imparted by the cylinders are in synch with the vibrations in the crankshaft, which results in a phenomenon called resonance. This resonance causes stress beyond what the crankshaft can withstand, resulting in crankshaft failure.
To prevent this vibration, a harmonic balancer is attached to the front part of the crankshaft. Yes the 3SGTE harmonic balancer doesn't look the prettiest and they could have made a better effort asthetically, but the function of the damper is composed of two elements: a mass and an energy dissipating element. The mass resists the acceleration of the vibration and the energy dissipating (rubber) element absorbs the vibrations.
I myself and many others have went down the route of removing the harmonic balancer, deeming it unnecessary and their mass reduces the performance of the engine. However, this is unproven and potentially very risky because the danger of damage to the engine from the vibrations the damper is intended to prevent is too high.
So my strong advice for today, if you've got an alloy pulley, retrofit a stock one !! Unless you have money to burn like me
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- toxo
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Re: Crankkiller - 3SGTE Crank failure
JJ wrote:Admin > If you can assist in displaying the photos instead of just the links... Cheers
This has prompted me to fix an ancient ancient flaw in the forum which meant you couldn't use photos hosted in the garage inside [img] tags. Now fixed
IMOC-UK - the only club to win 'Best Club Stand' at JAE more than once, and twice in a row!
Re: Crankkiller - 3SGTE Crank failure
Cue the wanted thread!!!
Annoyingly, my rotational assembly was balanced using my alloy pulley. Now I'll have an unbalanced assembly (maybe??).
Annoyingly, my rotational assembly was balanced using my alloy pulley. Now I'll have an unbalanced assembly (maybe??).
January 2014
May 2015
Still in the garage...
..the only thing I can promise for sure is slow progress.
May 2015
just have this niggling thought that if I rip out the wiring, then the car will never get out of the garage again.
Still in the garage...
Re: Crankkiller - 3SGTE Crank failure
Annoyingly, my rotational assembly was balanced using my alloy pulley. Now I'll have an unbalanced assembly (maybe??).
Not really.. the pulleys are balanced like if you were to balance a wheel or the compressor in a turbo, so adding it to the end of the crank isn't an issue. So you're rotating mass is balanced, however, the issue here is the balance under combustion through the twisting of the crank in an exaggerated form. The dead weight of the "harmonic damper" reduces this action.
This has prompted me to fix an ancient ancient flaw in the forum
Cheers buddy !
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Re: Crankkiller - 3SGTE Crank failure
has the crank been worked on before jj?
looks a little like this one
looks a little like this one
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Re: Crankkiller - 3SGTE Crank failure
Nice work Jonny! At least you get a top up on the ol' crank killer name!!!
Have to say, makes perfect sense regarding the harmonic pulley Vs. billet ally one.
Have to say, makes perfect sense regarding the harmonic pulley Vs. billet ally one.
476bhp & 415ft lb @ 1.9bar Magic by Ryan!
Gone, but never forgotten
Now with a mk1.5 & a NHB EP3
Gone, but never forgotten
Now with a mk1.5 & a NHB EP3
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Re: Crankkiller - 3SGTE Crank failure
Its always politic to dress the oil holes with a radius to prevent a crack like that from propogating, sharp edges are always stress raisers, couple that with the undamped assembly and youve got what you have there.
Gone like a good un too.
Gone like a good un too.
Re: Crankkiller - 3SGTE Crank failure
Good going!
Was the crank totally stock or had the journals been re-sized?
Was the crank totally stock or had the journals been re-sized?
TOTB 2010 Rwd top speed, 1/4 and shootout winner.
10.7@142 on R888 street tyres, 10.3@134mph on slicks,
9's on slicks to come, with a clean full throttle pass! Goal of 0-150mph in a 1/4 of a mile....
10.7@142 on R888 street tyres, 10.3@134mph on slicks,
9's on slicks to come, with a clean full throttle pass! Goal of 0-150mph in a 1/4 of a mile....
Re: Crankkiller - 3SGTE Crank failure
Yeah, I didn't mean that having the engine balanced resolved the harmonic dampin issue. Just that each component in the rotating assembly (crank, rods, pistons, flywheel & pulley) were all balanced relative to each other and now the pulley will be balanced, but not relative. Anyway, be better than a snapped crank
January 2014
May 2015
Still in the garage...
..the only thing I can promise for sure is slow progress.
May 2015
just have this niggling thought that if I rip out the wiring, then the car will never get out of the garage again.
Still in the garage...
Re: Crankkiller - 3SGTE Crank failure
Quigonjay wrote:has the crank been worked on before jj?
looks a little like this one
Jay > That looks great.. any history on it.. ? Boost ? ally crank pulley ?! Or did he stick in 1st gear at 90 !!
Stevo > I've been a bit quiet.. working on Supras motors
Greeny > Bone stock out the factory, no machining.. thats whats got me... have seen many run more power than my shed.. in fact I have ran mine at 2.1 bar at one point which was massively quick compared to when it split the crank.. but it split the block !!!... its possible at the time, it was the start of fatigue.
Anyway, be better than a snapped crank
Shmed > Sorry kid, I know you're in the middle of your build and probably spent some money on an alloy pulley ... I can't 100% prove it, havent got an engine test bed with vibration monitoring !!! but all the facts are pointing to it... I think I can get my finger on a celica one if you're in need.. alternator drive will be a rib or 2 short.
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Re: Crankkiller - 3SGTE Crank failure
No worries mate, I'd always had doubts about using the pulley tbh, but this has just confirmed it. Another waste of money
The alloy pulley I have was meant for a GT4 anyway, which meant I was always destined to have a custom alternator belt.
I'm actually thinking I would be better off hunting for a non-A/C model pulley if they are different?!
The alloy pulley I have was meant for a GT4 anyway, which meant I was always destined to have a custom alternator belt.
I'm actually thinking I would be better off hunting for a non-A/C model pulley if they are different?!
January 2014
May 2015
Still in the garage...
..the only thing I can promise for sure is slow progress.
May 2015
just have this niggling thought that if I rip out the wiring, then the car will never get out of the garage again.
Still in the garage...
- toxo
- IMOC Committee
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- Joined: Tue May 30, 2006 5:41 pm
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Re: Crankkiller - 3SGTE Crank failure
MR2 3S-GE rev1-rev5 uses 13407-88381
MR2 3S-GTE rev1-2 uses 13407-88381 (same as 3S-GE)
MR2 3S-GTE rev3-5 uses 13407-88481
Celica ST185 (rev1-2 engine) uses 13407-88380
Celica ST205 (rev3+ engine) uses 13407-88480
Doesn't seem to be anything different for non a/c models, I presume they still have the entire pulley but only 1 belt.
MR2 3S-GTE rev1-2 uses 13407-88381 (same as 3S-GE)
MR2 3S-GTE rev3-5 uses 13407-88481
Celica ST185 (rev1-2 engine) uses 13407-88380
Celica ST205 (rev3+ engine) uses 13407-88480
Doesn't seem to be anything different for non a/c models, I presume they still have the entire pulley but only 1 belt.
IMOC-UK - the only club to win 'Best Club Stand' at JAE more than once, and twice in a row!
Re: Crankkiller - 3SGTE Crank failure
You really are a wealth of Toyota Part information John
The Celica on requires a shorter alternator belt (as I found out with my alloy pulley).
Maybe I will just 'make do' with one that a major car manufacturer spent time & money developing
The Celica on requires a shorter alternator belt (as I found out with my alloy pulley).
Maybe I will just 'make do' with one that a major car manufacturer spent time & money developing
January 2014
May 2015
Still in the garage...
..the only thing I can promise for sure is slow progress.
May 2015
just have this niggling thought that if I rip out the wiring, then the car will never get out of the garage again.
Still in the garage...