Wheels / Tyres on Mk3

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greglebon
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Wheels / Tyres on Mk3

Post by greglebon »

Having had my Mk3 since January 2009, and during that time read the big debate about tyre widths / staggering, etc, I feel that there is a core few here that are basically putting the frighteners on new Mk3 owners un-necessarily?

Certainly, when I originally hinted at 17” wheels all-round with same-width tyres, I was told in no uncertain terms that:
“I WOULD END UP IN A DITCH!!”

Now following this I started looking into this statement, and more importantly, how this opinion may have originated…….

After all, we are simply disagreeing about essentially an extra couple of square centimeters of rear tyre contact with the road…?
Given that there are almost limitless combinations of tyre size, compounds, road conditions, vehicle speed, etc, it seems the statement is somewhat misleading…….

What has probably happened is that someone has had an “incident”, lost it on a corner and ended up in the ditch………

Now when this is mentioned people have jumped to conclusions and assumed that it MUST be down to the tyres…..? Then the “Chinese whisper” syndrome kicks in…… :roll:

Someone else loses it on a corner: “The same thing happened to someone I know, and it was the tyre stagger”, etc…

So it is incomprehensible that PERHAPS they were driving a little too fast, did not show the required respect for a mid-engined car, had a binding brake caliper, hit a patch of wet leaves / oil, etc,etc……?!

Now I appreciate that the stagger will obviously have SOME effect on handling, but there are a LOT of other more significant variables:
Binding brakes, tyre profile, tyre tread depth, tyre wear across the tread, suspension wear, etc….
And this is just on a standard car……!

If you then consider that any mods will also affect the handling: engine conversions, uprating suspension, adding ARB’s, aero enhancements, different size alloys, uprated brakes………

Having driven MR2’s for a decade now, I DO agree with one thing: you need to learn to drive a mid-engined car…….
I can understand people warning newcomers about the POSSIBLE danger of mixed tyres, stagger, alloy size, etc.

Take a typical example:
A guy has always fancied an MR2 Roadster (who wouldn’t!?). Currently drives a Golf.
Looks on Autotrader, finds a nice MR at the right price, buys it, drives it home.

Now its very likely the alloys are blistered, so he looks online for a nice new set of rims: 17” package deal from Halfords for £399… nice!
Buys them, sorted…..!

Monday morning, takes car for a blat on some “B” roads..loses it… crashes…writes off car…!

SO…what caused the crash? The tyres? Possible, but doubtful……

More than likely, it was because he was trying to drive it like his Golf, and HAD NOT GOT THE HANG OF THE CARS HANDLING!

Sorry…I’ve talked this through with several very good engineers and it’s a fact:
LACK OF TYRE STAGGER WILL NOT CAUSE YOU TO END UP IN A DITCH!

Driving like a t**t, speeding in a car you are not familiar with on unfamiliar roads WILL, on the other hand..!
Basically the sensible approach is this: buy the wheels / tyres you WANT to buy.

Then take it easy, until you know the handling……learn the car..!

By all means experiment with different tyres / wheel sizes: after all even Toyota got it wrong initially, changing the rear tyre width at the last minute… This was to make the handling less “radical”, thereby watering it down, making the car have a more universal appeal.

Maybe they were worried that people driving MR cars for the first time would be “caught out” by an unforgiving rear end, and this would generate bad press…?

This is not to say that it makes it dangerous, though, surely..?

This IS a can of worms: volumes have been written on car handling……..

But the fact remains that there are simply too many variables all contributing to the overall picture, and it is simply misleading to scare newcomers to the Mk3…….

I don’t remember any similar dramas when I first got my Mk1: people run all sorts of different wheels / tyre sizes / profiles on them without any “you’ll end up in a ditch” statements…….?

Now I wonder why that is..?
:whistle:
Last edited by greglebon on Sun Sep 06, 2009 11:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ekona
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Re: Wheels / Tyres on Mk3

Post by Ekona »

Go and search ROC and see the amount of people that have driven a car on the same size tyres and then spanked it a week later: there's been loads, one big one very recently. It upsets the whole handling of the car, makes it very twitchy and front-biased which can end in disaster too easily. Drive the same car back to back with the two tyre combos and you'll see exactly just how the difference effects the balance. Sure, you can drive round it, but that doesn't detract from just how dangerous it actually is.

Doing it when there's no good reason to is simply stupid IMHO.
greglebon
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Re: Wheels / Tyres on Mk3

Post by greglebon »

[quote="ekona"]Drive the same car back to back with the two tyre combos and you'll see exactly just how the difference effects the balance. .[quote]

Gonna be doing just that in the new year..! :thumleft:

Point of this is, though, there are many other factors which lead to crashes: this tyre business is only a tiny part of it...... :?
Ekona
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Re: Wheels / Tyres on Mk3

Post by Ekona »

Agreed, but if you can rule out dodgy tyres (see also mixing tyres on the mk3) then it must be something else. I've driven on same-size tyres on the mk3 once in my life for 30 miles on mostly motorway as I'd just bought a set of new alloys with the tyres already on (swapped for stock wheels + cash) and had to drive back to Braintree from Daventry. The car damn near tried to kill me about 4 times on that trip, and I swore it was something I would never EVER do again, and even I p*ss others off by going on about it it's worth it if it stops just one person having a crash.

If you're going to try same size tyres please make sure you do it either on track or well away from the public road, it's simply dangerous otherwise. Out of interest, why would you want to try same size tyres all round?
greglebon
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Re: Wheels / Tyres on Mk3

Post by greglebon »

Thats the point: is it not possible that your problems were caused by something other than simply the stagger of the front/rear tyres..?

Just MAYBE..?

Suspension, toe-in, camber, tyre compound, tyre pressures, sticking brake calipers...or maybe the fact that the new tyres needed "breaking-in"..?

The stagger is not as pronounced as people are led to believe, anyway....

Sure.....it makes a SMALL difference...but other factors affect things FAR more.......

http://www.spyderchat.com/forums/showth ... re+stagger

Have a read of this..... :thumleft:
Ekona
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Re: Wheels / Tyres on Mk3

Post by Ekona »

Given that I drove the car all the way up there and it was fine, drove it back and it was awful, and then swapped back to some sensible tyres and it was fine, I can't see any other simple reason for the issues. They were used tyres in both cases too, so no scrubbing in needed If you reduce grip at the back then the car will become very oversteery regardless of anything else, it's as simple as that.

Again, why would you want to risk trying it? It's not like you could possibly gain any benefit out of it, and the risk of sticking it in a ditch is massively increased.
greglebon
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Re: Wheels / Tyres on Mk3

Post by greglebon »

Ah...so the tyres that were "dodgy" were exactly the same brand, compound and profile as the "good" ones were they...?

The ONLY difference was the front/ rear stagger, then...?

:wink:
greglebon
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Re: Wheels / Tyres on Mk3

Post by greglebon »

ekona wrote:It's not like you could possibly gain any benefit out of it,


:lol:

No... heaven forbid, eh.......?

Read the SC link above...... :whistle:
markiii
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Re: Wheels / Tyres on Mk3

Post by markiii »

it wasn;t deleted and it didn;t dissapear it was appended to another similar discussion

by the way if anyone wants sensible tyre advice for the mk3 feel free to visit ROC, if your expecting a pat on the head about doing something stupid please go somewhere else

frankly its getting tiring (no pun intended)
Ekona
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Re: Wheels / Tyres on Mk3

Post by Ekona »

greglebon wrote:Ah...so the tyres that were "dodgy" were exactly the same brand, compound and profile as the "good" ones were they...?

The ONLY difference was the front/ rear stagger, then...?

:wink:

Yes, T1-Rs. Only difference was the stagger.

As for referring me back to the SC post, I'll ask you again what YOU hope to achieve, not what some thread on another forum says. Why do YOU think that everyone who has tried same size tyres says it's terrible, you feel you can get something out of it that they and Toyota and every race team who ever ran an mk3 can't?
greglebon
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Re: Wheels / Tyres on Mk3

Post by greglebon »

ekona wrote:Yes, T1-Rs. Only difference was the stagger.

As for referring me back to the SC post, I'll ask you again what YOU hope to achieve, not what some thread on another forum says. Why do YOU think that everyone who has tried same size tyres says it's terrible, you feel you can get something out of it that they and Toyota and every race team who ever ran an mk3 can't?


So "that thread on another forum" means nothing, then....?

Don't ALL threads on forums essentially mean nothing, then...?

But I digress...I will start by suggesting that you're telling porkys about the T1-R's...You couldn't very well post on a public forum that they were "brandX's" , now..could you...? :lol:

(BET you didn't check the pressures...!? :wink: )

but only you will ever know.....

As for what I "hope to achieve"..?

Well....its curiosity really, after reading all that scaremongering on a "thread on another forum" (the small forum, not the BIG, worldwide one...!)

I push the boundaries: no-one ever learns anything / makes progress without doing so........

I resent reading unsubstantiated claims about something WAY above almost all MK3 drivers..it IS a science, after all..?

Fine...if a VERY small core of opinionated individuals wish to stick doggedly to the OEM wheels / tyre size / profile / stagger..then fine....

Just dont try and scare newcomers into doing the same: Toyota had to play the safe game, which invariably resulted in compromise...

The Mk3 is defo NOT the perfect sports car, now, is it...?
Otherwise why would anyone bother designing anything else....? :D

There are people the world over driving Mk3's with same-size-all-round / mixed brands of tyres, etc...its down to the driver preference.......?

Wider tyres will increase traction and overall grip: ok, it'll let go more suddenly when it does (unless you run a softer compound on the rears, that is..? :wink: )...but it will handle better......

The whole point of this originally was that there are more factors affecting things than a small tyre stagger (which is ACTUALLY a lot smaller than most people have been brainwashed into thinking).

If someone fits a non-staggered setup, OF COURSE it'll be different to the OEM setup....but you learn the limits and drive within them.....?

Perhaps the optimum is a BIGGER stagger?
Maybe 205/45/15 Toyo's on the front and 245/35/17 Yoko's on the rear is the "golden" combo..?

Who knows: my point is that it CAN be experimented with, and you won't necessarily kill yourself trying......not unless you're a crap driver anyway, or you just drive like a t**t......?

If you're sensible, then you'll stay very much alive......and you may even discover the Mk3's true potential.........

If, like a lot of Mk3 drivers, you're more interested in posing with the roof down / hairdressing, etc.....then stick with stock, by all means......

Its ALL ok......we're individuals, after all.....? :whistle:
Last edited by greglebon on Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
markiii
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Re: Wheels / Tyres on Mk3

Post by markiii »

nope they were T1Rs I was with him at the time

would you prefer grapes or chocolotes by the way, just so I'm ready for when your overconfidence bites you in the ass

and incidentaly most of the people who tried and failed to give advice on this issue, have not only tracked their cars, but have also had them modified at one point or another

turbos, V6, Superchargers, and have confirmed the same issues both stock and modded,

but then maybe we aren't to your standard of driving godness :-)
greglebon
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Re: Wheels / Tyres on Mk3

Post by greglebon »

markiii wrote:but then maybe we aren't to your standard of driving godness :-)


:lol:

Now its tempting to reply "probably not" to that..... \:D/

...but you overestimate my levels of "overconfidence"....!

...and are STILL missing the whole point....!? ](*,) :clap:
Ekona
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Re: Wheels / Tyres on Mk3

Post by Ekona »

It's okay Mark, I'm pretty sure now that he hasn't got the faintest idea either what he's talking about or what he hopes to accomplish. As such, I'm giving up arguing with the bloke until such a time when car and ditch meet.
wabbitkilla
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Re: Wheels / Tyres on Mk3

Post by wabbitkilla »

Image

Oh no not another one!
wabbitkilla
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Re: Wheels / Tyres on Mk3

Post by wabbitkilla »

greglebon wrote:(Tried to post this on MR2ROC, but for some strange reason, the post "disappeared..! :whistle: )


Ah correction ... it didn't disappear, it was moulded onto the end of the already existing thread about tyre widths, stagger, and single makes. To come on here and accuse ROC of that behaviour is out of order, especially when certain individuals persist in bring it up again. To come over to this side and continue is little better than trolling.

You know, the advice anyone with any sense is going to give an owner needing to ask about tyres is going to be to maintain the stagger and signle make/model all around. If you want to go try something else then go ahead, just no where near me. Of course you've had your MK3 so long compared to the majority of the rest of us that you will obviously know better what suites the car. Just because the answers you get don't suit your ego doesn''t mean they're wrong.

Now this is healthy discussion :wink:
Leon.
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Re: Wheels / Tyres on Mk3

Post by Leon. »

Guys, can we please keep our toys in the pram, thank you.

Fact: Toyota designed the suspension setup around a staggered front/rear wheel/tyre. To deviate from this will compromise handling. If you drive very cautiously, it will not make a difference which tyres you have on the car. If you push the car, of course it will.

I don't think there's a lot more to say here tbh.
Ekona
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Re: Wheels / Tyres on Mk3

Post by Ekona »

Leon. wrote:Fact: Toyota designed the suspension setup around a staggered front/rear wheel/tyre. To deviate from this will compromise handling. If you drive very cautiously, it will not make a difference which tyres you have on the car. If you push the car, of course it will.

Except you're wrong, as even driving cautiously can and will cause serious issues. I don't think for one moment that everyone who has stacked their car over the years and had same size tyres on were all trying to drive at 100mph everywhere, so it's still a stupid and dangerous thing to do.


Actually, it's far more dangerous and stupid to go what Greg did and say that it's okay to drive on same size tyres, especially as this tiny section of IMOC could be someone's first introduction to the world of MR2s after they've bought their mk3. They might actually believe the theoretical tripe that he's spouting instead of the proven experiences of people who have had their car for years.
wabbitkilla
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Re: Wheels / Tyres on Mk3

Post by wabbitkilla »

Sorry for jumping in so heavily last night....

Many years ago i was looking a Smart Cars (don't laugh too loudly please).
Now they take tyre stagger to a new extreme, those fronts on the Smart Fortwo's look like they belong on a peddle bike. So one or two people fitted wide wheels on the front and had same size tyres all around ... against the advice of their fellows on the forum.
At leasr tyre choice was limited for the Smart at the time so they were all the same.

Now give one of the guys due credit, he did post up the results.

It was a damp morning, a nice sweeping bend he used regularly.
The car spun wildly then caught a curb, and then rolled and hit a fence. Total write off - what a mess... he did survive. Now he said that there was simply no recovery from the spin, the front was unctrollable. Everyone else on the forum nodded sagely and pointed out his error (again), and he agreed as in his experience in the same car in the same conditions on the same corner he hadn't had a problem like this for hundreds of journeys previously.

Now, we are using a different car and better suspension ... but do you seriously think there is that much difference in the mathematics? Some people do and have got away with different tyres than the recommended setup, but even without pushing the car a situation can catch you out. It would be irresponsible to say, 'yeah it's fine, go and knock yourself out'. Peoples lives are at risk and not just the driver of the car.

Has anyone seen the "Don't text and drive " vid on YouTube? I liken this to that
greglebon
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Re: Wheels / Tyres on Mk3

Post by greglebon »

wabbitkilla wrote:Sorry for jumping in so heavily last night....

Many years ago i was looking a Smart Cars (don't laugh too loudly please).
Now they take tyre stagger to a new extreme, those fronts on the Smart Fortwo's look like they belong on a peddle bike. So one or two people fitted wide wheels on the front and had same size tyres all around ... against the advice of their fellows on the forum.
Now, we are using a different car and better suspension ... but do you seriously think there is that much difference in the mathematics?


The maths will CERTAINLY be different...!
The Smart is front-engined, for a start...crucial......!
Under braking, the vehicle weight shifts entirely to the front of the car: with a mid-engined car, its nearer the middle.....?

Now with a Smart, using the example you quote, I would never have fitted the bigger tyres to the fronts: obviously as the wheelbase is more "stumpy", and there's bu88er-all weight (to speak of) in the rear, its gonna go light under hard braking, especially if you have more grip up front........?

NOT a good analogy to use in such a "healthy discussion"...? :wink:

As for the "ego" comment....:

Well, maybe that should be turned around...?

Someone talking a little sense comes along and rocks the status quo......?
Suddenly the establishment starts throwing toys around.......? :lol:
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