Rev 4 caldina swap q?

[MR2Kyle]

thanks folks for clearing it all up for me....I looked it up previously and over all a twin scroll charger (eg rev3) has been proven to be more responsive and have a better power curve than a single scroll (eg rev4) charger but really all I wanted was a car that would be a little different and giving it starts off with around 250ish standard I'm happy out! thanks for all the replies! And the member that's in New Zealand could you tell me what are the common problems on the cardinals just so I know what to look out for other than the usual oil leak

[MR2Kyle]

When I say cardinals I mean the caldinas

[sinjen]

I never got why people don't go for the rev4 or even 5 3sgte as surely they are the most advanced with the least issues. I always wondered why everyone ranted and raved about the rev 3....

The gen 5 has a centre feed manifold just like the Rev 3. The benefit of the gen 4 is its better side feed inlet manifold and coil on plug ignition - both things can be retrofitted to a gen 3


The benefits of the gen 3 is stronger stock rods, separate turbo/manifold and plug and play ECU options. In the grand scheme of things it doesn't really matter whether you go with gen 3 or gen 4, both have their pros and cons, I certainly wouldn't pull a healthy gen 3 motor out to replace it with a Gen 4. They're popular in the states because they never got the gen 3 in an mr2, and gen 3's are older and thinner on the ground so it makes sense to import front cuts from scrapped Caldinas for conversions.

If you had an NA or a dead turbo and had the option of gen 3 or gen 4 for similar money AND you didn't plan on much more than bolt on mods then the gen 4 is a better bet. But if you're going for a big power build, there really is no difference.

Apart from the stronger block and head design, newer materials etc. But generally I agree. Although I'm not sure why it's a downside having a lighter one piece mani/turbo if staying relatively stock.

Put it this way, if I put a ct20b on my gen 4 it would yield even more horses, putting me further ahead the Equivalent Gen 3.

[sinjen]

thanks folks for clearing it all up for me....I looked it up previously and over all a twin scroll charger (eg rev3) has been proven to be more responsive and have a better power curve than a single scroll (eg rev4) charger but really all I wanted was a car that would be a little different and giving it starts off with around 250ish standard I'm happy out! thanks for all the replies! And the member that's in New Zealand could you tell me what are the common problems on the cardinals just so I know what to look out for other than the usual oil leak

Not sure what you mean by the Gen 3 having a twin scroll and Gen 4 having single scroll charger (think you mean turbo?). The Ct15 is more responsive (Gen 4) than the ct20 (Gen 3) and I don't see a drop off on boost up to the redline at 1.3 bar, a little drop off at 1.4.

Btw Revision (Rev) is chassis, Gen is the engine. Rev 1,2,3,4,5 were the chassis revisions not engine

[MR2Kyle]

Sorry the gen 3 is a twin entry and the gen 4 is a single entry not scroll...wonder where I got that from and yea it was the turbo I was talking about sorry
Thanks for correcting me with the gen/ rev thing

[QUOC2008]

I had a c20b hybrid turbo 364bhp on 1.35 bars but it was very laggy as I was aiming for high bhp full boost started at 4.5 revs and ran very rough then remapped it for better idle and to get full boost start at 3 revs but power was down to 312bhp tho... stock set up. But forged is the way really.
Revision 1,2,3 have weak blocks compared to the rev 4 so don't bore them to fit over size pistons it will crack.

If I was you stick to stock and boost it a bit to300- 350bhp with a few supporting mods the apexi ecu plus commander with a apexi boost controller on a rev3 or rev4 engine with ct20 turbo will be more then enough power.

[sinjen]

I had a c20b hybrid turbo 364bhp on 1.35 bars but it was very laggy as I was aiming for high bhp full boost started at 4.5 revs and ran very rough then remapped it for better idle and to get full boost start at 3 revs but power was down to 312bhp tho... stock set up. But forged is the way really.
Revision 1,2,3 have weak blocks compared to the rev 4 so don't bore them to fit over size pistons it will crack.

If I was you stick to stock and boost it a bit to300- 350bhp with a few supporting mods the apexi ecu plus commander with a apexi boost controller on a rev3 or rev4 engine with ct20 turbo will be more then enough power.

I'm so confused! Do you mean Gen 3/4 or the Gen 3 engine in the rev3 and Rev 4? I only ask because the block was reinforced on the Rev 4 Gen 3. Was the 364 and 312 on your current gen 4 or previous gen 3? If it was on the Gen 4 were those figures with an unforged engine?

[sinjen]

I had a c20b hybrid turbo 364bhp on 1.35 bars but it was very laggy as I was aiming for high bhp full boost started at 4.5 revs and ran very rough then remapped it for better idle and to get full boost start at 3 revs but power was down to 312bhp tho... stock set up. But forged is the way really.
Revision 1,2,3 have weak blocks compared to the rev 4 so don't bore them to fit over size pistons it will crack.

If I was you stick to stock and boost it a bit to300- 350bhp with a few supporting mods the apexi ecu plus commander with a apexi boost controller on a rev3 or rev4 engine with ct20 turbo will be more then enough power.

I'm so confused! Do you mean Gen 3/4 or the Gen 3 engine in the rev3 and Rev 4? I only ask because the block was reinforced on the Rev 4 Gen 3. Was the 364 and 312 on your current gen 4 or previous gen 3? If it was on the Gen 4 were those figures with an unforged engine?

[kirk]

I'm so confused! Do you mean Gen 3/4 or the Gen 3 engine in the rev3 and Rev 4? I only ask because the block was reinforced on the Rev 4 Gen 3.

Taking this slightly off topic, if there any actual proof to this or is it word of mouth and what people say?

[Odin_S]

I'm so confused! Do you mean Gen 3/4 or the Gen 3 engine in the rev3 and Rev 4? I only ask because the block was reinforced on the Rev 4 Gen 3.

Taking this slightly off topic, if there any actual proof to this or is it word of mouth and what people say?

I'm sure it's word of mouth, if people see the car the gen 4 engine came out of they'll see it wasn't built for out and out power.(basically a hot Carina e) unlike the Gen 3 coming from a ST205 and SW20.

That said the Gen 4 does have much better ignition.

The never ending talk of the block strength does not take into account how man Gen 3 engine were built or in fact how many have been tuned when compared to a Caldina engine or even SW20 Gen 4 and 5.

Chances are when there is a tuned kouki sw20 it will be a Gen 3 as more were made.

The main thing to take away from my waffling is, cracked blocks come from bad tuning not necessarily the block itself. This means it will happen on any 3S-GTE. So make you get someone who can tune your ECU well.

[sinjen]

Pretty sure the early Rev 3 Gen 3's had weaker blocks and people have confirmed the difference between the Rev 4 Gen 3 block and the Rev 3 Gen 3. A very well known mr2 specialist has confirmed the difference between my Gen 4 block and the Rev 3 Gen 3 he had sat next to it.

Owning a Gen 4 and speaking to those who actually know, I know which I'd rather build for power.

That said, I am a fan of the Gen 3, especially as a factory original.

[Odin_S]

Pretty sure the early Rev 3 Gen 3's had weaker blocks and people have confirmed the difference between the Rev 4 Gen 3 block and the Rev 3 Gen 3. A very well known mr2 specialist has confirmed the difference between my Gen 4 block and the Rev 3 Gen 3 he had sat next to it.

Owning a Gen 4 and speaking to those who actually know, I know which I'd rather build for power.

Some may say you would say that Sinjen of course everyone thinks theirs is the best. All I'll say it i had mine built properly so I'll be very surprised if it does crack (famous last words )

[sinjen]

Pretty sure the early Rev 3 Gen 3's had weaker blocks and people have confirmed the difference between the Rev 4 Gen 3 block and the Rev 3 Gen 3. A very well known mr2 specialist has confirmed the difference between my Gen 4 block and the Rev 3 Gen 3 he had sat next to it.

Owning a Gen 4 and speaking to those who actually know, I know which I'd rather build for power.

Some may say you would say that Sinjen of course everyone thinks theirs is the best. All I'll say it i had mine built properly so I'll be very surprised if it does crack (famous last words )

Haha, are you trying to say I'm biased

[QUOC2008]

I m had a rev 3 engine fully forge with ct20 turbo I brought it like that and then took that out and sold it and put in a rev 4 complete engine and went mental on it.

The rev 4 block cylinder walls I believe are a couple of mm thicker then the rev 3 that's why the block is more stronger... I never mea sure them but that's what it looks like and the water gallery s are more efficient.

Rev4 only good if you want you forged and big power
Chicken leg rods limits is 300bhp


Rev 3 stock will run more if you don't go forge.
Rods are stronger but only 350bhp is limit I believe

Hope this helps

[JD]

It might be worth speaking to these guys in the States: [email protected]

They do a lot of "Gen 4" Caldina swaps into USDM MR2s, which never got past the "Gen 2" 3S-GTE. I don't know them personally but I'm aware of them and the fact they specialise in dropping these engines into S-dubya-twennys.

[sinjen]

It might be worth speaking to these guys in the States: [email protected]

They do a lot of "Gen 4" Caldina swaps into USDM MR2s, which never got past the "Gen 2" 3S-GTE. I don't know them personally but I'm aware of them and the fact they specialise in dropping these engines into S-dubya-twennys.

Also "Prime" in the U.S, as far as I know they've done the most swaps of Gen 4's and know it inside out. Think they've done metallurgy tests on the Gen 4 rods now too, at least it was in the pipeline.

[Odin_S]

As I've said, all anecdotal with cracked blocks,this was taken from MR2OC in the US.

15, 2015 - #30
Any thoughts on what the maximum safe/reliable power a stock Gen4 can handle before needing to upgrade the bottom end?
mister3
May 15, 2015 - #31
PitBull said:
Original Post
Any thoughts on what the maximum safe/reliable power a stock Gen4 can handle before needing to upgrade the bottom end?

300whp

Broke one after a bit making 321whp
JLee
May 15, 2015 - #32
mister3 said:
Original Post
300whp

Broke one after a bit making 321whp


What's reasonably achievable with a completely stock gen4 (well, with boost controller) on 91?
mister3
May 15, 2015 - #33
JLee said:
Original Post
What's reasonably achievable with a completely stock gen4 (well, with boost controller) on 91?

bone stock gen4 on CA 91 i'd guess to be in the 250 - 275 range (CT15)

bone stock gen4 w/stock CT20b @ 17.5psi made 295whp
same with our stage1 billet ct20b @ 17.5psi mde 321whp
PitBull
May 15, 2015 - #34
mister3 said:
Original Post
300whp

Broke one after a bit making 321whp


300whp really? I could be mistaken but aren't there many examples of people running over 300whp on a Gen4 w/o issue?

This person made 334whp at 16psi ( http://www.mr2oc.com/showthread.php?t=536546 ). I bought his turbo & exhaust and had it installed on my Gen4 and have been daily driving it for several months at ~17 psi with no issues whatsoever.

Yours that broke at 321, was that with 91 octane?
mister3
May 15, 2015 - #35
PitBull said:
Original Post
300whp really? I could be mistaken but aren't there many examples of people running over 300whp on a Gen4 w/o issue?

This person made 334whp at 16psi ( http://www.mr2oc.com/showthread.php?t=536546 ). I bought his turbo & exhaust and had it installed on my Gen4 and have been daily driving it for several months at ~17 psi with no issues whatsoever.

Yours that broke at 321, was that with 91 octane?

Stock ecu
mister3
May 15, 2015 - #36
PitBull said:
Original Post
300whp really? I could be mistaken but aren't there many examples of people running over 300whp on a Gen4 w/o issue?

This person made 334whp at 16psi ( http://www.mr2oc.com/showthread.php?t=536546 ). I bought his turbo & exhaust and had it installed on my Gen4 and have been daily driving it for several months at ~17 psi with no issues whatsoever.


Could be difference between turbo and fuel used



The number of ST215 engines is so small let alone tuned ones. So much misinformation Gen 1-3 conrods are forged and can go on to at least 500bhp

[sinjen]

I've been perfectly happy running mine, albeit with a ct15, for 2 years at up to 19.5 psi (fuel cut is at 22psi), my AFR's at WOT are 10:1 on the dot and never fluctuate.

In recent years, certainly since I became interested in the Gen 4, Prime have been happily building Gen 4's at ~330whp with the sweet 16 turbo with no issues at all. As said before, if you mess with any engine without making sure your AFR's are solid you're asking for trouble, as a few of the early swap people found out when they just wound up the boost to maximum.

Just to note, a stock Gen 3 would be pushing the limits at 330whp.

Justin over at prime has all the figures of what they've done (and I know he has a vested interest) and he's an approachable chap so just send him an email.

Personally, I can't wait to forge the innards and then really take advantage of the Head, ignition, block etc. But as a stock 300-350bhp mr2, the Gen 4 is an absolute peach.

[Al-sw20]

Rev 3 stock will run more if you don't go forge.
Rods are stronger but only 350bhp is limit I believe

Gen2/3 rods have been proven to handle 700+whp. The only reason you replace them in a forged build is if you want something lighter that is just as strong.

[Odin_S]

I've been perfectly happy running mine, albeit with a ct15, for 2 years at up to 19.5 psi (fuel cut is at 22psi), my AFR's at WOT are 10:1 on the dot and never fluctuate.

In recent years, certainly since I became interested in the Gen 4, Prime have been happily building Gen 4's at ~330whp with the sweet 16 turbo with no issues at all. As said before, if you mess with any engine without making sure your AFR's are solid you're asking for trouble, as a few of the early swap people found out when they just wound up the boost to maximum.

Just to note, a stock Gen 3 would be pushing the limits at 330whp.

Justin over at prime has all the figures of what they've done (and I know he has a vested interest) and he's an approachable chap so just send him an email.

Personally, I can't wait to forge the innards and then really take advantage of the Head, ignition, block etc. But as a stock 300-350bhp mr2, the Gen 4 is an absolute peach.

I put that in there to show you can crack a st215 block. All down to tuning once you go past oem.